Episode 47: The End of the Affair

Episode 47

Spoiler chat 01:04.562-14:22.625

Quotes of the podcast: “Klaus asks Stefan if anybody’s in the room, in the apartment, because Klaus is actually not really a vampire.”

Highlights: Surprisingly? Stefan and Klaus. Made even better by the storyline that was developing in the comments section ;). Gloria.

Lowlights: Katherine is back. I get the sense she’ll be very useless this time around. The first female Original we meet is immediately bossed around and killed, and Elena is forced to face reality because Elena must always be forced to face reality since she’s incapable of being realistic.

Rant: Caroline’s scenes and everything about them (including Tyler putting that ring on her finger).

Julie’s interview

Zap2it

Episode 6 synopsis

I just watched this video, about True Blood so there are spoilers for those behind. Like me. But it addresses some of the things we talked about in the comments. Specifically the equation of vampires with oppressed racial/sexual minorities, the girl being punished for refusing the guy in any way, and the more interesting yet still Black best friend. Beyond True Blood’s Sensationalism

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124 thoughts on “Episode 47: The End of the Affair

  1. + spoilers: They’re obsessed with dicks. Didn’t Klaus kill his family? Are the writers forgetting that he stabbed all of them? It would be difficult to be interested in the Originals on their own. I’m just happy that we’re not going to meet all of the Originals.

    Julie Plec doesn’t even realize the words that are coming out of her mouth. Wow. Does she even like Elena? She talks about her the way Damon does.

    Mason is coming back? What? Are people going to be haunted?

    They really love the actors? At least she’s making it clear what the writers care about. And they are gross.

    Mystic Falls isn’t even Katherine’s home.

    I’m holding on to the fact that Rebecca was the one in control with Stefan, except for the her being in love with him and his whole whatever with Klaus. I don’t know. As long as she’s not losing power to Stefan, I’ll feel better.

    + Caroline:

    It’s so manipulative what they’re doing with her.

    He manages to find out about the rings because he asks. This was so lame.

    I could imagine the air quotations. Their final scene is almost a perfect mirror to that first scene between her and Matt in her room.

    Gender roles are reversed? Okay. I guess this is an argument that could be made by someone somewhere. With time on their hands.

    I don’t know what you’re talking about, Alta. Tyler and Caroline are in the friend zone.

    Tyler’s joke was so gross.

    I hope it ends up being Stefan/Rebecca. Don’t care that it won’t happen. I’m going to hope.

    + Elena & Damon:

    They should be able to drive to Chicago in one day, but they shouldn’t have been there in time to interact with Stefan and Klaus.

    Elena asked Damon about his victims as if she cared about any of the victims.

    There was blood in some of those bottles. There was blood in some of those bottles.

    She’s disgusted by Damon and not Stefan because she’s an idiot.

    What you’re suggesting is a plan that would actually make sense.

    Of course he sounds bored. I bet you he did write “LOL.”

    Romance! Your boyfriend’s victim list!

    How creepy is it to think of Stefan’s taking his victim’s names as momentos?

    The Original Vampire who is no longer effected by vervain.

    She put on a dress in order to kill some time.

    + Klaus & Stefan/Flashbacks:

    Dapper is the appropriate word.

    I think she was upset because Stefan and those men were making a bunch of noise.

    That necklace wasn’t the same necklace that Elena had before.

    I think they wanted us to think of “jealous boyfriend” before they turned her into the sister.

    “Siblings go around talking like they aren’t romantically involved.” Lol, it’s true though. That was a lame way to get that information across.

    Klaus is super lame. He had to learn from Stefan who was just going about his business. That scene was so incredibly sketch and on a better show it would have worked better because it was so sketch. Scary fucking sociopaths being sociopaths together and this is what happens.

    His family treated him like an abomination, except for the fact that there was no reason for him to feel that way really. Also, earlier Klaus was ragging on Stefan because he wasn’t a pure vampire, but neither is he.

    Well Stefan said he was going outside for a bite to eat. So maybe he thought that was how things were going to go.

    More than one day passed and since that was the case, it probably made his memory a patchwork to have Rebecca and Klaus erased from his memory. Wait. It just occurred to me. Was Stefan the one who told Klaus about his up and down ways?

    He did stab Stefan in the gut twice last season.

    I have a biased, but it would make more sense if Klaus was actually interested in Stefan and not just calling him ‘brother’ and stuff.

    I’m choosing to believe that Klaus is respecting Gloria’s wishes about death in her establishment.

    Bonnie being related to the original witch would be lazy writing for a wide variety of reasons.

    Gloria is going to be torturing Stefan next week. Which is an upside. She could stab him and “miss”.

    I actually enjoyed Rebecca a lot more than I thought I would, but Gloria was awesome.

    I was expecting to find out Stefan and Klaus knew each other before, but that was because I figured the writers were going to be predictable but also non-sensical.

    Stefan looking down on Klaus does nothing for Klaus.

    This podcast is hilarious!

    Andie would have been Damon’s gal pal according Julie, so they have no idea or concern about the abuse going on with any of the characters outside of Elena & only when it comes to Stefan.

    “When I’m done with him he won’t want to go back.” Your brain went where everyone’s brain went. I’m not sure if there is a clean subtext to that line? It’s like in the finale when Katherine said that Stefan gave himself over to Klaus.

    They patronize Elena so much.

    That Rebecca/Klaus/Stefan scene was hilarious. People grow more attached to Stefan than he seems to grow attached to them. Except for Elena, but whatever about that. I think it’s possible for Stefan to have feelings, if only because the memories were just returned to him, but only because of that. Though I do agree that he seemed detached from what was going on.

    Joseph Morgan was pretty good in that scene.

    Next Week: The return of Bonnie and other important people with interesting storylines.

    • Mason is coming back? What? Are people going to be haunted?

      I would love this. Each of these people have had someone who died or have killed someone (in Caroline’s case). So Mason could haunt Tyler. One of the Martins could haunt Bonnie, John haunts Elena (or one of Stefan’s victims haunts her), Jeremy and Matt are already being haunted, and Damon isn’t in the episode. Or he’s doing something else.

      I don’t know what you’re talking about, Alta. Tyler and Caroline are in the friend zone.

      Oh yeah, I can totally tell from that shot of them falling into bed next week.

      There was blood in some of those bottles. There was blood in some of those bottles.

      I hope you’re not being sarcastic because I could’ve sworn some of the bottles had blood until Elena said it was alcohol.

      That necklace wasn’t the same necklace that Elena had before.

      But we’re supposed to think it is, right? Why couldn’t Bonnie have the necklace?

      Also, earlier Klaus was ragging on Stefan because he wasn’t a pure vampire, but neither is he.

      True. But I can see what he means since vamps like Stefan can be killed by fire, the sun, etc.

      Was Stefan the one who told Klaus about his up and down ways?

      I guess since he took Klaus back to his place. I wish they had been more obvious about the passage of time.

      He did stab Stefan in the gut twice last season.

      True. He should’ve done at least two more times over these 3 episodes. His image needs it.

      Bonnie being related to the original witch would be lazy writing for a wide variety of reasons.

      Yes. Lawd I hope it was more than one witch who casted the spell. I think it would go down easier with me if Bonnie was related to one of the witches instead of being related to the witch. Of course the best option is for her to not be related to them at all. The more familial connection the show draws, the more the world narrows, I feel. And I really don’t want another ancestral family for Bonnie. Show me her present family.

      People grow more attached to Stefan than he seems to grow attached to them.

      This is very true.

      • I hope you’re not being sarcastic because I could’ve sworn some of the bottles had blood until Elena said it was alcohol.

        I thought so too, but on second watch some of those bottles had blood in them.

    • Mystic Falls isn’t even Katherine’s home.

      I think it is the closest she has come to having a home. Her parents kicked her out. Klaus and Elijah tried to kill her as far she knew. But in Mystic Falls, she created this whole big network of friends and fake family until she felt she had to leave. Plus, she left not because her “loved ones” kicked her out again but because the situation got too dangerous. In Mystic Falls, she was the one in control. In her other “homes”, her “loved ones” were in control.

    • + Caroline:

      It’s so manipulative what they’re doing with her.

      Do you think that the Caroline/Dad stuff was actually about propping Forwood? I thought it might be because they are trying to make up for the Tyler/Jules/Brady debacle. Also, she got caught because of Tyler and saved with his help. He was the one who went to Sheriff Forbes. Not Carol. He also slipped a ring on her fingered and carried her away from her dad.

      You can’t see it but I am rolling my eyes so hard, they might fall out of my head.

      • I think they used it to prop up Forwood, but they also did it to make anti-vampire feelings seem ridiculous/cruel/sadistic instead of logical. Which is how they can have all the characters forgiving/ignoring Damon and Stefan being serial killers without dealing with the fact that they are in fact serial killers. Or that Caroline did in fact kill someone and that she does in fact use compulsion for sketch purposes.

        I don’t know if I’ll ever get over Tyler putting a ring on it.

      • I don’t think they thought of the idea in order to prop up Forwood. They just wanted to do something with Caroline, and of course their first thought was torture. But while developing the idea, if you can call that development, I think they definitely thought about ways they could squeeze Tyler and Forwood in there. Ugh. The reason I find this storyline so irritating is because Bill torturing Caroline should be something that downright destroys the relationship. But no. Not on this show. Relationships don’t end on this show no matter what one party does to another. And that is strange.

  2. Spoilers! I am rolling my eyes at everything Julie says. *shrug*

    Julie is watching another show than the one she is making or something.

    Mason’s coming back … They can’t afford to bring back Jasmine Guy …
    What about Bree or Greta or Jonas, Luka …

    Klaus … joining the team … Then he and Alaric could be really great friends. 🙄 “Remember Jenna? LOL!!” *side eye*

    Matt’s got to be laid … will Bonnie though?

    Tyler is probably getting really sexually aggressive with Caroline and that’s just what she needs. /sarcasm

    Matt/Bonnie FUCK YEAH! \o/

    I thought it was Stefan too with the unidentified #.

    Katherine is home sick for MF? Why not Bulgaria or London?

    I don’t know why Caroline told her dad about the ring. And why didn’t he ask her about the ring or how it works he just knew and removed it and didn’t even keep it in his pocket … 🙄

    When Caroline says her Dad hates her it makes me think of all the times she’s said it before. Her mom hates her, her dad hates her, Bonnie hates her … THE WORLD HATES CAROLINE!

    Why doesn’t he ask her who turned her? I thought he would.

    YES IT THOUGHT BILL WAS GOING TO SAY SLAVES. Prisoners = you know what it equals.

    What? He put in on her ring finger? o_O Caroline keeps that ring on her middle finger … yeah that’s right index finger. Why didn’t he just give her the ring and let her put it on? He put it on her finger and then carried her over the threshold -to take it even further.

    Tyler shouldn’t have been there. Did he even have lines? I didn’t like that Tyler even said anything … but to joke about it?

    Elena …

    The sun was bright outside. The last scene in last episodes didn’t happen for Elena because she was compelled. I want to say it takes about 12 hours to drive Virginia to Illinois? My Nanna said about 14 hours, in a car with each other. At least we didn’t have to see it. SMH Oh we did see it.

    I call BS on not invading privacy because she had Damon compel Jeremy. She had Stefan compel Matt. She badgered Stefan to tell her about his past … she’s a Snoop, so I don’t buy it.

    I told you Elena is a monster and they why monsters gravitate towards her and that’s why she “loves” the way she loves.

    I saw when Elena did that. She made that face towards Damon when he talks about what he did, but when she hears him tell her about Stefan’s past she sneers at Damon for forcing the information on him. Smh

    Damon LEAVES ELENA IN THE MURDERERS HOUSE! *face palm*

    “Did Stefan write LOL” LMAO *DIES!*

    I thought that Stefan was going to tell in her.

    Stefan’s cubby is a low quality Sylar sorry room.

    Awww Dapper.

    Klaus learned from Stefan … smh

    Klaus/Rebecca are incestuous. They are.

    I think Stefan said it’s been in his family for years …. Or maybe he said that about the first addition book. *Sigh*

    Klaus stabbed his sister because he loves Stefan fro himself.
    Oooooh ancestor of Greta’s! I am all for whatever brings Greta back. I hope Gloria has her own angle.

    Gloria running a bar. Is she Bree 2.0? At least she wasn’t made to love Damon or any damn vampire. I like that Gloria doesn’t really like vampires.

    “Rihanna like abuse” … WHAT! WHAT WHAT WHAT! OMG 😯 I think I need to stop watching this show. If Gabriel Union made a comment about her character getting abuse akin to Nicole Simson … she would be railroaded O_O

    When Klaus was torturing Damon with a toothpick … I was thinking how does that go through his ribcage? I thought he was going to stick it in his neck or eye. Come on. Also when Damon was getting tortured by Klaus it totally pales in comparisn to the sacrifice. A toothpick!

  3. Klaus … joining the team … Then he and Alaric could be really great friends. “Remember Jenna? LOL!!” *side eye*

    Lol!

    Matt’s got to be laid … will Bonnie though?

    Ugh, she better. Jer’s got a lot to give.

    I don’t know why Caroline told her dad about the ring. And why didn’t he ask her about the ring or how it works he just knew and removed it and didn’t even keep it in his pocket …

    Good point! Knowing the ring allows her to walk in the daylight tells him nothing. He didn’t even ask where and who she got it from. UJ would have done so much better. I told you…this story is useless.

    When Caroline says her Dad hates her it makes me think of all the times she’s said it before. Her mom hates her, her dad hates her, Bonnie hates her … THE WORLD HATES CAROLINE!

    Oh my God, you’re right! I only thought of the guys at the time, but she has said it about Bonnie and her mom. Ugh. Enough already.

    I call BS on not invading privacy because she had Damon compel Jeremy. She had Stefan compel Matt. She badgered Stefan to tell her about his past … she’s a Snoop, so I don’t buy it.

    She’s only a snoop when they want to show how “relentless” she is. Rme.

    I thought that Stefan was going to tell in her.

    I thought so too. Why is Stefan still with Klaus? Before they told us it was because he wanted to protect Elena and Damon. But he hasn’t done anything to try to take Klaus out. They’re saying he wouldn’t be there if he didn’t have to be, but he’s not doing anything to get out.

    Klaus/Rebecca are incestuous. They are.

    I’m trying to decide if I would be opposed to that.

    I think Stefan said it’s been in his family for years …. Or maybe he said that about the first addition book. *Sigh*

    And now I have to double check. Just checked. He says he’s had the necklace forever, and he’s never wanted to give it to anyone.

    • And now I have to double check. Just checked. He says he’s had the necklace forever, and he’s never wanted to give it to anyone.

      Why is this so hilarious to me? It’s not like he knew that he got it from Rebecca, but he did know/have the memory of just picking it up off the ground in a bar in Chicago…while he was killing people all the time.

      • Lol. It’s weird because in this episode Stefan tells Elena that 20 years is nothing to a vamp, but to Elena it’s a lifetime. But he apparently viewed 1920 to 2009 as forever. Maybe he was just trying to blend in as a teenager?

  4. JP interview – I wish they would give the Originals their own show. To me, they don’t feel like they belong in this one

    I am sorry. It was their *intention* to introduce 7 new characters?? What? Planning – a skill missing from JP

    Regarding retcons – Wasn’t the necklace supposed to be Katherine’s originally? Does anyone remember what Stefan said about where it came from?

    Heroes? LOL. I want the drugs JP is on. She is either on something or she is a BS master. Probably trying to appeal to all the tween viewers. I am done reading these people’s interviews after that Rihanna comment. My only exposure will be listening to you talk about interviews.

    OMG! The propping of Delena by the other characters is going to be painful. It was painful even in that brief scene with Elena and Forwood in the season premier.

    I really hope they don’t use Jeremy’s lie of omission to create faux drama for Beremy. They already have real drama what with ghosts haunting Jeremy and frightening him at every turn. Ok so he didn’t tell her but I thought that was a result of him worrying about her doing more magic and him maybe doubting his own sanity for a while. This storyline has the potential to get rid of any reservations I have about Beremy. I was one of those people who was not comfortable with this ship until the very end of season two. Not because I thought Jeremy was dating Bonnie for the magic but because he had *2* other *loves* within the span of a year. So that is 3 “loves” within one year. Who falls in love this often? The whole thing was just a little too much for me. I didn’t want Bonnie with that guy. It seemed like he would glomb on to any available woman. Hopefully, this storyline clarifies this character for me more. Actually, this whole dynamic makes me think of what Katherine/Stefan/Elena could have been. The whole ghosts of gfs past thing. Oh wait. That is what they are doing with Stelena a little bit with Rebekah and Katherine in the picture now. LOL

    IA about Mason. What is the point of him at this point? Jules would make more sense for Tyler. She was the one who did a lot to help him. A lot of that was crazy and made no sense but she still gave it her all. But ofcourse they are going to bring in the hot guy who everyone is screaming for instead of the woman everyone hates because she dared to stand up to the Salvatores. How is what she did worse than what Mason tried to do?

    Heroes? LOL – JP is insane. It already makes no sense that Matt and Tyler hang out in the Salvatore house. Now she wants Klaus to hang out with Tyler, Elena, Alaric and Bonnie?? What the hell? She is writing a show about death and violence but at the same time death and violence hold no meaning in her show.

    Hopefully, Matt gets together with Katherine. LOL. Why not? That Carina lady from zap2it keeps pushing for it.

    It makes sense to me that Forwood is about loneliness. *All* of the characters on the show are lonely. That is one of the big reasons Elena got together with Stefan. Remember, in early season one, when Stelena and some others were sitting in the Mystic Grill and someone mentioned that Elena’s parents are dead and Stefan said that his parents are dead too?

    Smells Like Teen Spirit? LOL. These people are such children of the 90s

    Bonnie/People who are not Elena – YAY!

    For those of you have read the book or watched the movie (The End of the Affair), was this ep anything like it?

    But Damon never shows fear to anyone. He didn’t show fear to Elijah or Klaus either. It is not just Katherine. He gave her more respect when he still thought she could love him. He doesn’t think that is still possible. But I don’t think he will ever get over her. If she said that she love him right now, he would take her bad.

    Lol Prepared to be mad. You know that Gloria and Katherine are/were working together. Who else would it be?

    Went on and on about Caroline/Bill on TWOP trying to figure it out. It is just cheap, more Caroline torture and about Forwood. It had very little to do with Caroline. It might later on but not in this actual ep.

    I kinda find it interesting that all the diff supes have specific places in Mystic Falls where bad things happened. Witches have that witch house were they got burned. Werewolves have the slave quarters were they chain themselves up. Now, the vampires, have a torture chamber inside, what I am assuming, is a prison.

    What are they doing with Caroline? Jeez!

    I think Elena freaked about Damon being in her bed because it is an escalation. He is acting like a child molester. He keeps doing the same things over and over again until his victim gets used to it and then he dials it up a notch. When Elena saw him in her room in the last ep, she didn’t really get mad or anything. She just asked him in an exasperated voice if he had been drinking. She is used to it. So now he is moving to the next step

    Have you noticed that Stefan has two very specific arcs now? The blood arc and the Ripper arc. Damon has the tomb arc and … what? The emo arc of season 2?

    Obviously, Klaus was paying for the apt or compelled each landlord and property manager to keep the apt as it is. LOL. Klefan is love

    Elena logic -> Damon can’t be saved but Stefan can be.
    To be fair, Damon did snap her brother’s neck. Maybe she can’t see him as being “saved” or “good” anymore. I guess she just puts up with him now?

    I wonder if Klaus already knows Elena is alive. Maybe he wants to get Stefan’s complete loyalty before going after her or wants confirmation that killing her again is what he needs to do to create more Hybrids. Which ever comes first. I know, I know. I am trying to make sense of a nonsensical situation.

    Elijah couldn’t spot human!Katherine either. Maybe Originals really don’t have super hearing. Oh wait. Was he able to hear Rose, Damon and Slater from outside the coffee shop? I think so?? Nevermind. This show is dumb. Speaking of Slater, if they are going to bring back useless characters, I want Slater back. His death made like zero sense and he was awesome.

    Elena is too dumb to live. I want that necklace to be a magical love thing. Maybe that is why she is so obsessed with Stefan. Maybe her brain is deteriorating as a result of these forced feelings and obsessions. Yeeeaaaah, let’s go with that

    Klaus/Rebekah have this weird incesty vibe to it. Ew!

    Rebekah did say that she just chose the winning side. She didn’t say that she stayed with him because of any other reason. That line makes his rationale for creating Hybrids even dumber. He said that the other Hybrids would stay with him because they would be on the winning side. Well, Rebekah stayed for the same reason and then tried to leave

    oooh! It just occurred to me that a pattern is now developing with Stefan and blonds. Lexi and now Rebekah. The doppelganger thing was kind of forced on him by Katherine. I just might ship Stefan/Caroline again. LOL. I am not that into ships but most of the ships I would find interesting are AU ships – Stefan/Caroline, Elijah/Jenna, Elijah/Damon, Gloria/Rebekah, Elena/Brain, Damon/Jules, Alaric/Death, Damon/Rose(or random female vampire), Damon/Stake, Klefan, Elena/Matt(flashbacks), Katherine/Matt, Bonnie/Caroline, Bonnie/Luka etc. ::Deep Sigh::

    Klaus lived through Medieval Europe, right? Or close to that time period and he needed *Stefan* to teach him about methods of torture?

    Julie wants us to not have empathy when watching the show?? Only a very small percentage of the population lacks the ability to feel empathy. Obviously, most of us are going to feel something when we see images of pain and death. They are not portraying this in a cartoony way. They are playing it straight. The guy who was forced to drink his wife’s blood looked truly horrified. Obviously, when we see a human face in distress, we are going to react and then connected that to the stupid list. Isn’t that what they wanted when they had Klaus mention the guy’s name in the apt so that Elena could hear it and spot his name on the list? But Stefan is still a hero?? I feel like I need to break it down to the simplest terms because what she said is boggling my mind. There is a way to portray a vampire story as pure escapism and this isn’t it. Ok, am I freaking crazy or is this woman the crazy one? Does she even think about what she says in interviews?

    Maybe the Original Witch they are referring to was the leader of the group of witches responsible for the curse.

    I am going to hold off on fangirling about Gloria until the next ep or two. I was excited when the Martins showed up and we all know how that ended.

    This show has lost the ability to shock me. That is what happens when 80% of what you do is try to shock people. It becomes mundane. It is just stuff that happens.

    Maybe Klaus kept it a secret until Chicago because he wanted Stefan to get his hands dirty before that. So by the time Stefan remembered his bond with Klaus, he already felt like there is nowhere else he could go. All the murders are like a push away from Elena and the memories were a push towards Klaus. He was priming him in a way. That is how I am fanwanking it for now

    I think Stefan does make the distinction between innocent and guilty. Also, humans and supes. I noticed the distinction when he was talking to Elena. He said something like, “I’ve left a trail of bodies from to Tennessee. Humans, Elena” And I was like, “what about all the werewolves you slaughtered?” I don’t think they count as persons to Stefan

    Oh please, you know that female power is fake on this show. There was no way that Rebekah was going to succeed in hurting Klaus.

    During the flashbacks, I def got the impression that Klaus was more in love with Stefan than Stefan was in love in Klaus. LOL. Klaus was like a rich dork trying to ingratiating himself with the cool kid in town.

    • Uhh…There are a lot of grammatical and spelling errors in my post. Sorry! Forgot that there is no edit button here and I forgot to proofread.

    • Rebekah did say that she just chose the winning side. She didn’t say that she stayed with him because of any other reason. That line makes his rationale for creating Hybrids even dumber. He said that the other Hybrids would stay with him because they would be on the winning side. Well, Rebekah stayed for the same reason and then tried to leave

      Just looked at the scene on yt. Rebekah said “I chose the right side…Eventually” She didn’t say “winning side”. So maybe that is why she was not in the Elijah/Klaus flashback. She hadn’t chosen to be on Klaus’ side yet. If she was already daggered, maybe he removed it when Elijah left so he would have someone to hang out with. LOL. Every thought I have about Klaus makes me laugh.

    • I am sorry. It was their *intention* to introduce 7 new characters?? What? Planning – a skill missing from JP

      Smh.

      When Stefan gives Elena the necklace, he says he’s had it for a long time and he’s never wanted to give it to anyone. When Elena finds the picture of Katherine, Katherine isn’t wearing the necklace (though it’s a little hard to tell from the youtube clip). And also? Lol @ Elena saying Stefan told her no more lies and that she can handle the truth. She sure has a a high tolerance for lies. This show.

      The thing is, even if I go back and rewatch season 2, it is so hard for me to see Jeremy as being in love with Anna. And that’s not even shipper bias talking. He never said the words, nor did he ever look at her like he was in love with her. I feel like the producers are just being lazy by having him in love with Anna at the time of her death. His attempted suicide was about him. Not her. Her death was too much for him. He already wanted to become a vamp after Vicky died. Now that was about Vicky as much as it was about him.

      This title came from a book/movie? The things I don’t know.

      Went on and on about Caroline/Bill on TWOP trying to figure it out. It is just cheap, more Caroline torture and about Forwood. It had very little to do with Caroline. It might later on but not in this actual ep.

      I love what you said because there is truth to it. The resilience label can only go so far before it becomes a bad thing. Just like Elena’s compassion:

      Then I can’t buy Caroline as a real character. No one can be this resilient. Everybody else mopes around for good reasons. She was raped, murdered, transformed into a vampire and tortured twice. I don’t see the fact that they have her move on from things quickly as an asset. I guess the nickname Vampire Barbie is even more apt than I previously thought. You can take her apart and put her back together just like that. She really is plastic. Life in plastic – it’s fantastic.

      Also this shit?: I am getting a bit tired of the African American witch thing unless the show is able to tie these people together into one family. If they do that, I can buy it.

      The thought that if people that are White are in a show than the reason is obvious, but if people who look like me show up, then there needs to be a concrete reason? So fucking demoralizing. People don’t even recognize their privilege, racial hang-ups, etc.

      Have you noticed that Stefan has two very specific arcs now? The blood arc and the Ripper arc. Damon has the tomb arc and … what? The emo arc of season 2?

      Lol, I guess so. I think Julie would call it the Redemption Arc. Also, your point about Damon escalating things is scary.

      To be fair, Damon did snap her brother’s neck. Maybe she can’t see him as being “saved” or “good” anymore. I guess she just puts up with him now?

      But she likes him just the way he is…

      Elena/Brain

      Haaaaa!

      I am going to hold off on fangirling about Gloria until the next ep or two. I was excited when the Martins showed up and we all know how that ended.

      *Sigh*

      During the flashbacks, I def got the impression that Klaus was more in love with Stefan than Stefan was in love in Klaus. LOL. Klaus was like a rich dork trying to ingratiating himself with the cool kid in town.

      Lmao.

      • Also this shit?: I am getting a bit tired of the African American witch thing unless the show is able to tie these people together into one family. If they do that, I can buy it.

        I responded to a similar statement with the rebuttal that most vampires are white and that I don’t see any questions about that. And that the problem is the way the witches are treated within the show and blah blah blah – the usual. However, I think the show is going in this direction. I think they are making *all* the supes part of some family. Rebekah, Elijah, Klaus and the Doppelgangers are all from one bloodline. The way they “reproduce” is by turning human beings. So you can still say that ALL vampires are actually just from one family. The same for werewolves. It is genetic. It is family in a very broad sense. It is more like a ….race maybe?? But there are very few of them left so they are closer to a “family” than a race maybe?? Idk. With the mention of the “Original Witch”, I think they are going this way with witches too. Although, uhhh, why just *one* Original Witch? There are like 9 Original Vampires and God only knows how many Original Werewolves.

        Supernatural did this a while back. I don’t remember exactly when because it was one of those times I checked in to see if the show had gotten better. I DID NOT like this aspect. Instead of all the supes/monsters being individuals, they were actually all connected to each other via an Original (they may have used another word). The Original could choose to control them at any point through some sort of psychic mind-control ability.

        • Ugh, I hate that idea too. Just…nooooo!!!!! But if they’re going to make the witches as originating from one person…can they have the Black witches talking about it instead of the White vampires? Instead of a vampire and a witch? Bring back Gloria and Lucy and they can talk about it with Bonnie. Ugh.

    • For those of you have read the book or watched the movie (The End of the Affair), was this ep anything like it?

      Nope. Not even a little bit. In the book, the woman breaks off the affair because she finds God.

      I want that necklace to be a magical love thing. Maybe that is why she is so obsessed with Stefan. Maybe her brain is deteriorating as a result of these forced feelings and obsessions. Yeeeaaaah, let’s go with that.

      Could work. Rebecca did say that the necklace brought her love. Haha. I’m sorry. That line was just so ridiculous.

      Klaus lived through Medieval Europe, right? Or close to that time period and he needed *Stefan* to teach him about methods of torture?

      Maybe he wasn’t interested in human forms of torture? Maybe Klaus spent a lot of time just killing people and not torturing them? Or maybe he liked the simplicity of forcing a man to drink his wife’s blood? I don’t know. Klaus was in his 900s at that point. I’m going to assume that he watched Stefan do other more inventive things. Otherwise Klaus just gets lamer and lamer.

      Maybe Klaus kept it a secret until Chicago because he wanted Stefan to get his hands dirty before that. So by the time Stefan remembered his bond with Klaus, he already felt like there is nowhere else he could go. All the murders are like a push away from Elena and the memories were a push towards Klaus. He was priming him in a way. That is how I am fanwanking it for now

      My friend and I were talking about, if the show had really wanted to make this work and decided to push forward with a slow burn instead of GOTCHA execution, then they could have introduced Klaus sooner, but not revealed he was Klaus, only that he was a vampire, after having taken Elijah out of commission earlier (to do away with that conflict) and have him compel Katherine to keep her quiet, and then had him go about building this relationship with Stefan. All of this could be occurring while Katherine was basically destroying Elena’s relationships and isolating her, in a effort to get her ready for the ritual. And them boom, reveal all this stuff about Klaus and Stefan having a shared past, with Stefan already primed, by Katherine and Klaus (though not working together), to go bad/trust Klaus and then reveal that Klaus was Klaus and who then work from there.

      Anyway, what you said.

      During the flashbacks, I def got the impression that Klaus was more in love with Stefan than Stefan was in love in Klaus. LOL. Klaus was like a rich dork trying to ingratiating himself with the cool kid in town.

      I’m waiting for Stefan to do something that Klaus really doesn’t like and for him to respond to it by saying, “It’s not my fault that you’re like in love with me.”

      • then they could have introduced Klaus sooner, but not revealed he was Klaus, only that he was a vampire, after having taken Elijah out of commission earlier (to do away with that conflict)

        THIS. This exactly was my issue with the way Klaus was handled last season. I kept expecting him to show up as some random vampire. The fact that they spent all that time with Elijah is even more frustrating now that Klefan is the real story.

        What you are suggesting, Olu, would require planning, subtlety and good writing. Qualities that this show just doesn’t have. So now Klaus was “priming” Stefan after he “murdered” Elena in front of Stefan.

        • So now Klaus was “priming” Stefan after he “murdered” Elena in front of Stefan.

          If only they had thought this thing true. Because if Klaus had been priming Stefan before he murdered Elena then we’d at least get the sense that he was capable of creating and implementing intricate plans, we would have gotten the early sense that he was capable of caring about a person, since he clearly cares about Stefan, but his concern would also be framed as even more sketch than it is now and the Klefan parts of the s2 finale, even without the flashbacks to Chicago taking place, would have been less “lol, Klaus has a crush” and more “so this is what he wanted from the start”.

          Thinking up storylines for this show is easy. Why do the writers always mess everything up?

          • then we’d at least get the sense that he was capable of creating and implementing intricate plans

            Dude couldn’t even bring his own werewolf and vampire to the sacrificial party.

        • I like your version, Olu.

          What you are suggesting, Olu, would require planning, subtlety and good writing.

          Yes. I find the lack of build-up and any discernible long-term plans especially grating. (And sometimes, when you think that the show is really building up to sth, the writers seem to change their mind and drop it.)

          I’m confused why fandom is OK with the amount of retconning (a direct result of the lack of any long-term plans) that is going on in this show. Like, Klaus’ entire personality was basically retconned.

          At the moment, I’m just happy that there seems to be at least *some* kind of plan behind this Klaus/Stefan/Originals business. But why did we have to wait until the 3rd episode? It’s not like there was any kind of build-up towards this in the first two episodes.

          I could rant about this show for hours.

          • I’m confused why fandom is OK with the amount of retconning (a direct result of the lack of any long-term plans) that is going on in this show. Like, Klaus’ entire personality was basically retconned.
            Well there are plenty of people in fandom who don’t seem to realize/care/think that anything has been retconned.

  5. Something just occurred to me. Forwood = Klefan this season Caroline and Klaus both have fathers who don’t accept them and are after them. Klaus had low self-esteem and Stefan helped him gain confidence. Caroline has low self-esteem and Tyler helps her increase it I guess. LOL *Dying*

      • He can’t smell or hear. He has spent a long time trying to make sure he could get Stefan to himself and he had to let Stefan kill people to do that. His sister has a better chance of getting laid than he does, having not killed Stefan’s girlfriend right in front of him, in what can now be fanwanked as him reclaiming Stefan, and he owns two shirts.

        He has to be comic relief.

    • We don’t know for sure that guy is Klaus’ father, but maybe he’s the one Klaus is referring to when he talks about starting a war. But if he’s Klaus’ father…Klaus was content with going to speakeasys and being bored instead of trying to find a way to kill the guy?

      Caroline’s supposed to be over her self- esteem. Everything in the show supports that. Oh Lord I hope she’s over it. They better not regress her. Again. Becoming a vampire was supposed to make her even more insecure and not just in terms of a guy, in terms of Elena too, but the producers dropped the ball there.

  6. Why bring Mason back and draw attention to the shadiness surrounding his death, the lack of consequences for the people involved in his murder and the fact that Tyler conveniently got over it once the plot required it? Oh, I forgot. He was hot. Right.

    Elena has crossed the line from uber-naïve to downright psychotic. Guys, let’s hope she never becomes a vampire. *shudders*

    The necklace is totally the new Moonstone. I saw a post somewhere arguing that Elena, since she’s wearing the necklace, is now a walking, talking McGuffin. Lol.

    So I guess what the writers are going for with Stefan is his conflict regarding Klaus/Rebecca and Damon/Elena. Surrogate brother & former love interest vs. real brother & ’true love’ (ugh, I know). It’s not that bad an idea per se, I’d say, but I doubt it’s the right kind of SL for this show? I mean, this SL is not really about twists and turns (of course he’ll eventually end up choosing D/E) but about exploring different dynamics between the characters and I don’t know if the writers can make it work? I don’t know if this makes any sense. Just a thought that popped into my head.

    Elijah/Jenna

    I shipped them so hard!!!

    I also wanted the show to explore the Jenna/UJ dynamic (not romantically!) and then both characters died in the same episode. I felt trolled.

    He keeps doing the same things over and over again until his victim gets used to it and then he dials it up a notch.

    This is horrible!!!! Show, what are you doing?

    • I also wanted the show to explore the Jenna/UJ dynamic (not romantically!) and then both characters died in the same episode. I felt trolled.

      Me too! When they killed off Isobel, John *and* Jenna, I was like, NOOOOOO!.

      The necklace is totally the new Moonstone. I saw a post somewhere arguing that Elena, since she’s wearing the necklace, is now a walking, talking McGuffin. Lol.

      What was the season one McGuffin? Was it Emily’s Grimoire or the necklace that Bonnie had? It seems like this is going to be a thing from now on – Elena + McGuffin or McGuffin + McGuffin

      I mean, this SL is not really about twists and turns (of course he’ll eventually end up choosing D/E) but about exploring different dynamics between the characters and I don’t know if the writers can make it work?

      Isn’t this the kind of thing they used to do in season one? Before the OMFG!Twists took over completely in season 2. But these are diff writers so…

      I like this because maybe the writers are indirectly telling us that Delena will never happen because, despite the inappropriate sexual tension, Klaus/Rebekah is never going to happen. A girl can dream.

      • Me too! When they killed off Isobel, John *and* Jenna, I was like, NOOOOOO!

        Oh yes, Isobel, too. Isobel turned out to be such a pointless character. The writers didn’t do that much with Jenna and UJ either. But with Isobel it was even less. And she was the birth mother of this show’s lead! Alas, I forgot: the only important relationships Elena has are with the Salvatore brothers.

        Part of me is kind of relieved that Aunt Jenna isn’t there anymore and thus escaped being involved in the BS that is going on atm. But I sorely miss UJ because I think the show needs this character more than ever before! Somebody to put a stop to Damon appearing Elena’s bedroom whenever he likes and stop Elena from running after a serial killer on a murder spree.

        Ohh, I just had this idea: What if UJ were still alive and pretending to wanting to help D/E save Stefan? He’d go on this trip to Chicago with them and he would be the one to talk Damon into distracting Klaus, hoping this would be the end of Damon. And then, while Elena and Stefan were talking outside the bar, he would suddenly attack Stefan and kill him (sorry, Stef!). [After all, he also managed to kill Pearl and Harper in the same way and both were older than Stefan.] The end.

        What was the season one McGuffin? Was it Emily’s Grimoire or the necklace that Bonnie had?

        I’d say there was no major, season-long McGuffin. Only a few minor ones. Season 1, I ❤ you.

        I like this because maybe the writers are indirectly telling us that Delena will never happen

        Most of the time, I think that Delena won’t happen. Not because the writers care about Elena – they obviously don’t – but because they care about Damon. But then I get doubts every now and then. For instance, IS – who has always been promoting DE – completely changed his tune regarding this relationship recently – which, imo, can be taken as an indication that Delena is now directly upon us! Ugh.

        • And then, while Elena and Stefan were talking outside the bar, he would suddenly attack Stefan and kill him (sorry, Stef!). [After all, he also managed to kill Pearl and Harper in the same way and both were older than Stefan.] The end.

          *Cries* It would have been so beautiful.

    • Oh, I forgot. He was hot. Right.

      The sun literally came out of his face every time he smiled. Why did they have to kill him?

      It’s a shame the show/writers think they’ve pulled of the Stefan/Elena/Damon thing to the point that the relationship is a given, when I’m already far more interested in Klaus/Stefan/Rebecca. Mostly because it is not based in the absolutes the show is so devoted to.

      Whenever I find out that there are other Elijah/Jenna shippers, I smile.

    • A couple of people have started saying that Elena is like Katherine when it comes to Stefan, just without the undead status.

      How much you want to bet Mason’s return will be more dramatic and poignant than Lexi’s? I’m comparing them because they’re both going to end up being one-episode returns.

  7. I have a question about the gay dad and aversion torture thing. Let’s try doing the usual thought experiment of replacing one group with another. What if it wasn’t a gay man? What if it was a male AA character and he was doing something to someone else that was done historically to people like him due to prejudice? Like his parents or grandparents or even him in an earlier time lived in fear of this particular thing but he is doing this specific thing to someone else within the same context – prejudice.

    Or how about if it was a male Jewish character? Let’s say this Jewish man did something horrific to someone else and this thing was something that was done to him or his ancestors due to prejudice. And they lived in fear of this act. Would that be offensive to portray that on tv. I mean he is doing the thing that was done to his people as torture because of prejudice to someone else as torture because of prejudice. Do you guys think that is offensive?

    I don’t want to name specific acts because I am not AA or Jewish so I don’t want to be inappropriate by accident. Hopefully, this is not inappropriate. Plus, I don’t want to get into the who has it worse contest.

    • I think it’s offensive for a wide variety of reasons but mostly because it would be heavy-handed and considering what the show actually did with the aversion therapy, it would be pointless.

      It also conflates a minority status with vampirism when killing people/indirectly causing the deaths of others is not something that is a natural part of being gay, African-American, Jewish, or any other minority. If it was well done, that would be one thing, but it’s mostly a way for the writers to have their cake and eat it to. They care but not enough to actually examine what their characters are doing.

      Plus you have the whole issue of sometimes it’s the right choice to kill a vampire and that isn’t true in real life, if vampires are stand ins for homosexuals or African Americans or Jewish people.

    • I don’t think people would be quick to point out the history if it was an AA person, simply because many people have called Bonnie a bigot against vampires, etc, but I’ve never seen them say, “And how can she be such a bigot against vampires when she’s Black?!” I’ve seen one comment say she shouldn’t be because she’s supernatural too. I can’t be sure what the reaction would be if it was a Jewish person. The thing is though, I’m sure many of the people who are brining up comparisons between what happened to Caroline and what happened to homosexuals wouldn’t be doing so if the writers were more subtle. And they weren’t because we don’t only have the knowledge that Caroline’s dad is gay as reference: we have KW’s interviews and the heavy-handed dialogue. “I’m going to fix you.” “You can’t change me.” “I accepted you.” And so on. Imagine if Bill had been in Liz’s place back in 2.05 and 2.06.

  8. Kinda OT – Have you guys seen Stefan stans justify what is going on by saying that he is not being himself? Sort of like Angel/Angelus?

    • I’ve heard of the Angel/Angelus comparison but I’ve never seen it myself. What is the appeal of jumping at the chance to say your fav. characters’ actions are not her/his own? I’d hate that. It’s why I always shut people down whenever they bring up the possibility that Bonnie’s possessed (after the device thing and after Jonas gave her her powers back).

      • I was one of those people who wished that Bonnie was possessed by Jonas because the way they ended the Martins story horrified me. Witches/Black people can’t go on without Vampires/White people?? What?? He had no plan that didn’t have anything to do with Elijah? He gave instructions to Bonnie on how to kill Klaus in *hopes* that she would save his daughter? Bonnie was his enemy. That is it? He lived as a plot device and he died as a plot device. Again, it horrified me. And this was like the 8th time or something that they treated a witch like this.

        However, in general, I agree with you. The above wish wasn’t about Bonnie but about the way that the show treated the Martins. I think the desire to give Stefan a diff personality comes partially from the confusing way the show is framing his current arc. Plus, some people desperately want to see him as “good” so they are trying to distance his current actions from the “real” him so that they can continue to root for him. I imagine that this sort of thing is why BTVS did this for Angel in the first place.

        • What’s worse is they didn’t even frame it like that re: Jonas telling Bonnie how to kill Klaus in hopes she’d save his daughter. Unfortunately, Bonnie never said anything of the sort. He just told her the answer with no canonical reason. Ugh.

    • I’ve only heard of these comparisons. To be fair, they aren’t pulling it out of thin air, the show is definitely sending mixed signals when it comes to whether Ripper Stefan is himself or not. Personally, I wish the show would drop this blackout BS. It’s just too dumb, even for this show.

      What is the appeal of jumping at the chance to say your fav. characters’ actions are not her/his own?

      When the only alternative is accepting that your fave character is a psychopathic serial killer, I can definitely see the appeal.

    • Why this doesn’t work for me is that season two of Angel was basically about how Angel was Angelus and there was no way to separate Angel from his actions as Angelus.

      So when people try and make that comparison it falls flat for me for that reason and because despite the show trying to muddy waters by throwing out “blackouts” and the suggestion that Stefan can’t control himself, those are all words in comparison to Stefan’s behavior which suggest that he has an incredible level of control over his actions. He’s way to focused and precise for anything else.

      I blame the show primarily because it’s been pressing this idea of Stefan as “good” from the start. In dialogue more than in action and it’s created this feeling in fandom that he is a better person than he actually is. So his fans are finding a way to justify his actions.

      There is also the fact that this storyline is at least partially about making Delena possible and however honest it is in regard to Stefan (and I believe that, aside from the fact that he hasn’t been able to say anything yet…except for all the bitching, it’s pretty honest), if one has a view of Stefan as being the “good” or “better” brother, they’ll have a problem with this storyline being used in this way.

      • I also think people are invested in Stefan being good because of the Damon aspect. I have yet to see a Stefan fan claim he is still the hero without it being an obvious slight against Damon. And yeah, I blame the show for that. Even in response to the trailer, I’ve seem someone say: heck yeah you’re not Stefan, Damon, and you could never be. *sigh*

        • Even in response to the trailer, I’ve seem someone say: heck yeah you’re not Stefan, Damon, and you could never be. *sigh*

          The problem with this sentiment is that Stefan is clearly crazy. Batshit crazy. So yeah, Damon could never be Stefan, but from where I’m standing that’s not a compliment to Stefan. Not in terms of humanity/decency at least.

  9. Did anyone else find it strange that Liz seemed to be justifying Bill’s behavior to Caroline? Because that’s what Caroline needed to hear at the moment? “oh Honey, here’s where your FATHER was coming from when he decided to torture you.” Liz should have been shaking with rage and feeling helpless that she could NOT in fact explain to Caroline why her own father, a man she had trusted, got along with better than she got along with Liz, would turn around and do this to her. For hours.

    This story is such fail. Liz was acting like Bill just yelled at Caroline or disowned her.

    • The big problem with this storyline is that it isn’t about anything. Not really. I mean there’s the suggestion of something. There could be. But we don’t know Bill. Caroline has to be sad so others, Tyler and Liz, can be comforting and/or savoirs, and she won’t get to be angry. Tyler gets to make jokes and Liz attempts to justify Bill’s behavior instead of saying that he had no right to do that. Or at least having some form of breakdown on her own because this was something that she was or could have been capable of. I don’t know. There are so many things wrong with the storyline in terms of writing and in terms of character.

      • Yes! Why isn’t Caroline angry or confused or at least in shock? I honestly think shock should be the stronger emotion rather than tears and sadness. And Caroline has basically worked everything out. She says her dad hates her. That means she’s already processed it and come to a conclusion. Whether she’s right or wrong, my point is she’s able to think clearly enough despite what she just went through, to assign a motivation/feeling to her father. Ugh. Why did they do this?

    • Did anyone else find it strange that Liz seemed to be justifying Bill’s behavior to Caroline?

      Yes! But I wasn’t surprised tbh. This show.

      Just one thing about the torture scenes: What I hated the most was this one shot of Caroline crying out in pain, while the sun is flooding into the cell and Ume’s “Run Wild” starts playing. It basically screamed: “This is soooooooo cool.” Ugh. Way worse than “Crying Wolf”. Like I said, this was written by the same writer who gave us “The House Guest”.

  10. I put something about the aversion “therapy” in the Unspoiled thread in TWOP but I want to run it by you guys as well. Someone else suggested it and I expanded on it

    They will need a way to “fix” Stefan that won’t take 30 years. I wonder if it will be framed as an addiction issue at that point and not the “you can’t change me, dad” prejudice angle we got in this ep. In other words, Vampires need fixing vs. Stefan needs fixing. The difference being that Bill did it without knowing anything at all about how Caroline was dealing with vampirism. He simply assumed that she could not control her blood cravings because, in his mind, all vampires can’t control their blood cravings. He assumed things about her based on what she is. That is the definition of prejudice. In Stefan’s case, I think it will be super obvious that he is out of control and can’t stop by the time they try this.

    • They’ll probably do that and in that moment I will stop being able to care about Stefan’s story. It’s hard enough to care with his crazy being framed as addiction, but talk about giving him a tenuous hold on his issues.

      I feel like with Stefan, or any vampire, the outcome should either be death or redemption and since they won’t let Stefan become a villain he should either be taken to a redemption arc or die. The problem with a redemption arc at this point is, Stefan is beyond redemption, whatever the show wants to believe. So he should probably die. I’d be uncomfortable with the show going with aversion therapy route to solving Stefan’s problem. It’s tenuous at best and just, if it took 30 years for him to clear it on his own, I don’t know how much aversion therapy could shorten the deal.

      In Stefan’s case, I think it will be super obvious that he is out of control and can’t stop by the time they try this.

      They’ll probably do this, but they’ve already established that Stefan can stop and has stopped on multiple occasions. However long it takes him, he has actually stopped in the past, which makes the addiction aspect of the storyline shaky. Not to say that addicts can’t stop and start, but the idea that what Stefan does is an addiction is ridiculous. It may be a compulsion…because he’s a serial killer. But there’s no cure for that, you know? Stefan isn’t only drinking blood. He’s killing people. He’s torturing them. How would therapy create an aversion to that?

      Nevermind. I don’t know why I keep talking about this show as if it’s good or will construct a believable resolution to this storyline.

      • LOL. Yeah, it is not good and it is ridiculous. I used to speculate about things that I thought would make sense for the story but now I just speculate about the various dull/uninteresting directions these writers will take the story.

      • I thought of this because of how they used Rose to demonstrate the effects of a werewolf bite before Damon got bit by Tyler. I thought that this might be a case of demonstrating something on one character that will be used on another character later. Plus, I am sure that they didn’t show us that torture chamber just for Caroline. It will probably be used later for something else.

        Basically, look at the story. Think about all the possible diff directions it could go. Now remove all the interesting possibilities and leave all the dull/gross possibilities. That is what the TVD writers will come up with. Harsh? Probably. But they have yet to prove me wrong in this regard.

        • It would continue the trend of having something horrible happen to a female character for no reason and then having matter when it happened to the male character. I bet he only gets exposed to direct sunlight once. Like how Damon only had a light sheen of sweat to let us know what was up.

          • Exactly. It seems like there is a trend but I can’t think of examples other than Rose atm. Weird because I seem to recall someone else (Emily?) posting about this with examples on another comment thread here.

            • Emily talked about the example of torture. When Caroline was tortured (now twice), it was horrible and she screamed and she cried. When Damon was tortured, he just growled some. The only person who’s come close to Caroline’s reaction was Mason.

      • I feel like with Stefan, or any vampire, the outcome should either be death or redemption

        I am going to ask a stupid question.

        What is redemption within the context of the TVD verse? Even in the beginning of the series, I didn’t think that this story was going to be about redemption because even the “good” vampire (Stefan) wasn’t doing anything to *earn* his redemption. I kinda thought that this story was going to be about the opposite of redemption – wtvr that is. Degradation?? I thought it was about a girl who falls for a pair of bad guys because of her grief and that these bad guys were going to take her and her friends to a world of darkness. I thought the story was going to be about how they all cope with all the dark forces that have suddenly appeared in their lives. I thought the story was going to be about corruption and power struggles, basically. I thought this in the very beginning of the series. Now I don’t know what to think. The show isn’t going either way. There is no redemption and they don’t really want us to see the evil acts the vampires commit as actually evil. Andie and Caroline weren’t really raped according to the show. Matt’s grief was ignored for so long. Tyler doesn’t seem to have any anger/resentment about Mason’s murder. In this show, there is a lot of violence but at the same time the violence has very little meaning. I don’t know what to make of that.

        JP said that the story is about family. I don’t know what to make of that either. They don’t seem to be doing much with that. Is the story supposed to be about people forming “families” in times of difficulty or something. I can sort of see that being Katherine’s story. She seems to bounce from one “family” to another. I guess the Salvatores are trying to create a family. I don’t know. I am confused by this show.

        • What is redemption within the context of the TVD verse?

          To be honest? I don’t think it means anything on this show. No one is allowed to feel or understand anything long enough to react to what’s happening to them. If people choose to react, it’s always a reaction towards the wrong person in an effort, writing-wise, to never deal with those who are actually culpable. This happens towards Caroline a lot.

          I don’t think the show was ever about redemption and they certainly aren’t trying to make it about redemption now. At least, they won’t do a good job of it. Nor have they established a world in which that is possible, considering no one gets to confront anyone about anything. How can one be redeemed if the pain people feel is put off (Matt re: Vicki) or ignored (Tyler re: Mason) or erased (Caroline and Andie) or swept under the rug (Bonnie re: Sheila)?

          My initial thoughts about the show were that it would be about how Stefan and Damon basically introducing Elena and her friends to a world that could not be taken back, if that makes sense. Once the supernatural effects you or touches you or touches your life there is no going back. Whether they were good or bad and whatever the show wanted to position them as, Stefan was, in the beginning, at the very least, a dark gray and Damon was bad. His intent was to degrade while Stefan’s intent was…to blend in. He wasn’t doing anything to redeem himself and by not doing anything to redeem himself he accomplished very little, of his own merit, in preventing Damon from raping and torturing Caroline or killing Vicki or any of the number of people he killed. So not exactly degradation, at least not a deliberate degradation, but a slow burning infection. Something with fewer gotcha moments. Something where it would hit the characters in small and large ways how much their lives had changed.

          But like you said, the way the show is now neither story really works. Because none of the characters seem to be able to voice the very human ways the supernatural has changed their lives. Not for long. They don’t get to be angry or hurt. They rarely get to laugh. The relationships are almost entirely paper thin when they don’t have to be. The fact that redemption isn’t a real possibility on this show goes hand-in-hand with degradation not being what has actually happened/ Does that make sense? If the show sent a clear message that what Stefan and Damon introduced and brought into the characters’s lives was wrong, whether they could have been introduced in another way or not, then that would have been a step in the right direction. Making them responsible for the very act of entering Elena’s life would suggest that they’re responsible for everything they do. Instead Stefan “has to know her” and “can’t control himself” and no one gets to stay angry at Damon and have him take them seriously (not even Stefan) and Elena loves him just the way he is and Julie Plec gets to talk about how Damon is cyclic and Stefan is an addict.

          So what they end up with is a show with a bunch of emotionally deficient people because there’s no way to understand the characters without deciding that they lack something essential to human nature. & even that could be part of the story. Mystic Falls does something to it’s citizens, you know? Instead Julie Plec says that this is a show about family and the writing has Elena abandon what should have been her secondary family from jump (Bonnie/Caroline/Matt/Tyler) and her primary family soon after (Jeremy/Jenna/John) in order to secure a relationship with Stefan and Damon, who have a relationship based entirely around Elena, so it barely works as a familial relationship. They may as well be best friends from way back. Tyler and Matt are broken up without much in the way of ceremony. Jeremy didn’t have any friends until this season. I don’t know. This show makes me think a lot, but most of the time I’m sure I put more thought into it than the writers do.

          • And the thing is I feel like the show wants us to think that Elena is actually better off for having Stefan and Damon in her life. Their entrance into her life was a good thing. I definitely get that sense from Julie. That’s why I feel the closest we’ve ever gotten to any character wishing the Salvatores had never come to Mystic Falls is Bonnie’s attitude after Sheila’s death. Her saying everything that happens is Damon’s fault while burning him to a crisp was saying this stuff wouldn’t be happening if he wasn’t here.

            The fact that Jeremy, Caroline, and ESPECIALLY Elena have never wished the Salvatores never came to town makes the show even more 2d and it stifles their emotions. Heck, even Cordelia wished Buffy had never come to Sunnydale.

            • TVD is ridiculous. I saw the sneak peek for the next ep. It is a Forwood clip. In it, Caroline is upset about her father and is hiding out from him. So this show…*Deep Sigh* is going to go into the emotional fallout from what Bill did but they still haven’t given us anything like that when it comes to the Damon/Caroline rapemance. One of the more jarring scenes for me in the premier was when Caroline was in Damon’s bedroom. She told Elena that she was there to take a break and drink some blood. So the show is trying to tell us that when Caroline feels uncomfortable and needs to hide out from some guy she has a crush on, Damon’s room is the most relaxing place for her. What?! Maybe there were blood bags there but why wouldn’t she just take them and vamp speed to Stefan’s room or some other vacant room? The place is a boarding house, right?

              I still can’t believe that Tyler and Matt aren’t anti-Salvatore. How is that even possible? Tyler should have issues with a lot of people on this show.

              • I’m not going to watch that clip. The fact that it’s Forwood and not just Caroline or Caroline with Bonnie or her mother is a huge part of that. I don’t know, if they were still friends it wouldn’t bother me so much, but it feels like a way to isolate her the same way the Salvatores isolate Elena, only not as bad because at least Caroline has Bonnie. I’m not even sure what I’m saying anymore.

                Caroline trusting Damon is mind-boggling to me. Tyler and Matt make no sense to me in terms of their interactions with the Salvatores & Elena. Tyler makes slightly more sense than Matt since he is a supernatural and Caroline exists so their stories become more about each other than anything else, but still. Neither of them make any sense. At least not as the show stands now, without any development.

                • I watched it, and I totally get what you’re saying. Tyler being Caroline’s refuge fails for the simple reason that not too long ago, she needed refuge due to something he had taken a part in, and her reaction to that was glossed over.

                  • Of course, you guys are right again. I am so slow to catch on to ship propping. Are they seriously making Caroline’s relationship with her dad all about Tyler? THIS show.

          • I stumbled on a portion of the JP interview on a blog I follow. JP restated that the show is about bloodlines that go all the way back. So the story is about biological families rather than chosen families?? She also said this is partly why a lot (not all – not Gloria) of the witches are AA.To me, it seems like she is sort of talking about tribes or maybe the history of the people who lived in America back in the 1860s (Europeans, Africans). Ugh! The show is still incomprehensible to me. Is this something that requires knowledge of American history? What does sacrificing women (Doppelgangers) have to do with bloodlines? Is it a commentary on the oppression of women? On how white men gained power at the expense of women and slaves? Actually, what is the significance of Doppelgangers in this story? What do they represent? Idgi.

            • I am so confused by what point JP was trying to make with those answers. To be honest, I can’t take what the producers/writers say seriously because their execution is so poor. If they were actually commenting on the things that occur within the episode, within the writing on the show, then maybe, but their statements represent this huge disconnect. & I don’t know everything about American History, but the writers don’t have the strongest grasp of it as far as I’m concerned.

              • The show started out with the idea that the history of 6 families shaped the town of Mystic Falls. Those families were the Salvatores, Gilberts, Bennetts, Forbes, Lockwoods and Fells. Plus, the Donovans were featured in present day Mystic Falls. Does it feel like they have done anything substantial with those families? Not to me. Now they are ready to move on to the Original Vampire family. This whole thing is like how they keep moving from one villain to the next without really exploring the potential of each “villain”. Klaus is *already* afraid of a Bigger Bad?? LOL. I am predicting that 2 eps after this “villain” is introduced, there will be talk of even a Bigger Bad.

            • It think what she meant by that is that most of the witches who have been on the show have come froma family, not necessarily same family. And it’s true. Aside from Gloria and Bree, we have three witches who were related to Bonnie and the Martin family had three people. The bulk of the witches are from a Black family unit. That’s how I immediately read the comment.

              As for her assertion that the show is based on family or is about family: that doesn’t come across. The only family they care about is the Salvatore brothers (and by care about, I mean they give them lots of screen time). They’ve killed most of Elena and Jeremy’s family, Elena has thrown Jeremy under the bus for the Salvatores, we don’t know Bonnie’s primary guardian, they’re just now exploring what Vicky’s death meant for Matt, they discarded the Martins, etc. Most of the fans can’t even tell you what the show’s about: some say it’s Elena’s show, some say it’s about a girl having to choose between two guys, some say it’s about the triangle so Elena can never really choose, and some believe it’s really about the Salvatore brotherhood. Nobody knows.

              • I don’t think this show has a point. Which is what makes watching it so frustrating. Bonnie is on a somewhat unintentional hero’s journey. Stefan is on a villain’s journey that is being messed with at every turn in order to keep him from his proper end. Damon was on a redemption journey, but that is near impossible now. Jeremy is ridiculed at every turn, so I’m not sure what the show wants to do with him. Caroline keeps getting tortured so her empowerment is off the rails. Tyler is her boyfriend. That’s it really. Matt just got around to having his grief recognized. He can’t even get a proper revenge arc. Elena? Maybe her story is about suffering, I don’t know. I thought it would be about self-actualization. She would rediscover who she is. That’s not happening. But almost all of these storylines are contradicted by the plot, the characters, or the writing.

                So I think it is about how long the writers can maintain this love triangle and how they’ll destroy the main three through laziness in the process.

                Semi-related: I posted my ep review on Tumblr.

                • Totally agree about the show not having a point. And the way you describe the characters is perfect. Jeremy would fit on Bonnie’s show (as if I’d put him anywhere else, lol. Please). Elena is basically on Twilight with the boyfriend devotion.

                  Tyler is her boyfriend. That’s it really.

                  Lol. Never thought douche Tyler from season 1 would end up just being somebody’s boyfriend.

                  Just reblogged and commented! Knowing what you sound like makes reading the reviews even more funny. I can just imagine you saying the words. Not to sound creepy or anything.

                  • At least Bella had a goal that she pursued endlessly and then eventually received. Even if she was crazy.

                    I know. Tyler ending up the werewolf boyfriend on a show where werewolves don’t even matter enough to be a danger or an asset is not where I thought his storyline would end up.

                    It’s not creepy at all.

                    • Isn’t it though? Werewolves aren’t people on this show. No one gives a damn and they are not relevant in any way.

                      Btw, how lame is it that Hybrids are vulnerable to both vervain and wolfsbane (going by Ray) but don’t have super hearing or super smell (going by Klaus)?

                    • True. I was talking about the part where her story was all about Edward, wanting to be with Edward, thinking about Edward, admiring Edward, etc. The main reason I only made it through the first half of the first book.

                      For real. Ugh, there should be so much animosity between Tyler and the Salvatores. Especially between Tyler and Damon. Instead of falling in line and basically being one of the boys while Damon and Stefan are the men, Tyler should be like a lone wolf (yeah, I know). I got the sense in season 1 that he didn’t do well with authority/being told what to do. Probably because of his relationship with his father. He should be standoffish and kind of distant because he’s the only werewolf he knows/he’s the only werewolf in town. It should have taken him a while before feeling comfortable enough to talk openly to anyone not Caroline about his werewolf stuff. He shouldn’t be open to being told what to do by the Salvatores or Elena. The same goes for Bonnie being the only witch. I wish that was an attitude that she would adopt as a result of messing up the Klaus thing (as I mentioned on the podcast in my Elijah scenario). But no. The Salvatores of the leaders (this might also be me ranting about that one part from the episode 7 synopsis, but yes).

                    • I can’t reply on certain comments. The button isn’t there.

                      To Susan: Every time someone points something out about the Hybrids they get lamer and lamer. Though I guess Ray was a failed Hybrid, so he’d still be affected by wolfsbane. They’ll probably never explain what went wrong other than Elena being alive, so it doesn’t really matter.

                      To Alta: The fact that there isn’t more animosity in the group is amazing to me. So many of these characters should feel or be willing to isolate themselves from the others. But they don’t.

        • I think redemption is all about being forgiven. It doesn’t matter if you’re truly sorry, as long as someone decides you’re really sorry, and that someone is Elena, then you’ve been redeemed.

  11. Do you guys think that the show will ever give us a reason for why Klaus is not going after Bonnie? And why no one is even thinking about the possibility that Klaus could come for her. She can still kill him. Greta could control Jules’ shifting so, I assume, Bonnie could learn to do the same to Klaus. Plus, she has access to all that power. Even if we put all that aside, she tried to *kill* him. Isn’t he supposed to be ruthless? He killed Katherine’s family and sacrificed Jenna just to mess with Elena.

    • It’s really nice of Klaus to consider Bonnie’s summer vacation. That’s the explanation I’m going with and nothing else.

      No one is even talking about how they have to kill Klaus, so my hopes are low.

      • LOL. Klaus knows the importance of summer vacations. He didn’t want to interrupt his vacation with Stefan to go after Bonnie.

        You would think that Jeremy would have brought Klaus in his phone conversation with Bonnie. My fanwank is that Stefan made a “loved ones” deal with Klaus similar to the one Elena had with Elijah. That still doesn’t make too much sense because Klaus is not that reliable

        • I looked at JP’s twitter account a little while ago. She wrote that she worked until 2:00am last night. How can people work this hard at something and fail so completely?

        • My fanwank is that Stefan made a “loved ones” deal with Klaus similar to the one Elena had with Elijah. That still doesn’t make too much sense because Klaus is not that reliable.

          It doesn’t make much sense because wouldn’t that tip Klaus off a bit? And like you said, Klaus isn’t reliable. Having a “loved ones” deal would ensure that Klaus would know who to go after first, other than Damon who is an obvious choice.

          • Of course, you are right. There is no way to make sense of why these characters aren’t worried about Klaus. People have gone to save Stefan without a way to deal with Klaus for 3 eps straight. Elena’s plan in the last ep was to tranq him and lock him up somewhere. She gave no thought to Klaus at all.

            • Somehow, Klaus is no longer a danger to these people. It is not just about him coming after them but it is also about them not being afraid of him or looking for ways to take him out.

              • Now contrast that to how on the alert everyone was about Katherine at the beginning of last season. Whereas they had a plan in place to take Katherine down in episode 7, they won’t even start talking about the Klaus situation until episode 5. Despite the fact that Klaus has been committing more murders than Katherine did.

    • They’re not going to give us a reason. Just like they never gave us a reason as to why Klaus wasn’t worried about Bonnie coming after him in the finale. He spent all day Mystic Falls. It’s like Klaus knows the producers are in his side.

      Damon’s going to be talking about taking Klaus down in episode 5 or 6. 5 or 6 episodes into the season, and we’re just now going to start talking about taking down the so called Big Bad. The thing with this show is that they want to direct your attention in what to focus on, even if that thing doesn’t make sense. For the first couple of episode they wanted us to be on the edge of our seats about Elena seeing Stefan again and possibly bringing him back.

  12. Guys, I just thought of Elena’s weird/psychotic attitude towards Stefan in the past 3 episodes and how it would have made more sense if the writers had linked it to Elena’s death in the sacrifice. The writers could have shown that

    a) Elena is now callous towards death in general. Like, in a way, death is no longer this great, terrible thing for her since she has actually died herself? Death has lost its meaning for her in a way? And that’s why she doesn’t really care about the deaths her bf is responsible for? So what that all these people have died, so has she.
    b) as a direct result of her death, Elena has become much more selfish and self-centred. That she thinks: “This horrible thing happened to me. I died. Not only that, I died under these horrible circumstances, used in a ritual in which also my aunt died. I was a pawn, an ingredient for this ancient ritual, utterly helpless. And now that I’m back and have my second chance at life, I’m going for what *I* want, consequences be damned. I don’t care who gets hurt in the process.”

    Basically, the show could have embraced Elena’s psychotic state of mind. This could have then turned into a season-long arc for her: her appreciating the worth of life (the worth of other people’s lives!) again.

    I don’t think that’s perfect or anything but this would have made more sense for me. Plus, this way, the story could have been more about Elena’s character than just about her being a devoted gf.

    What do you think?

    • JP and KW would never even consider the second option. Elena selfish and self-centered? These are the same people who changed her personality from the way she is in the book because they didn’t think a show centered around a bitchy character would do well.

      The first idea sounds good, and you’re right that this would make the story more about her. Of course my option would be Elena examining herself now that Stefan’s gone and realizing that she doesn’t really miss him. She misses him, but it’s okay that he’s not in her life and she can’t be with someone capable of what he’s capable of. So yeah she would want to save him because she remembers how he doesn’t like being this way, but as the body count mounted, she would eventually switch to Bonnie’s pov that Stefan has to be put down.

    • a) I like this. It would work better if she had been made aware of the Jeremy ghost situation. And it would fit in, somewhat, with the way death is handled in the TVD verse. It is not an end. It is simply a transformation into something else a lot of the time. Elena already knows about vampires and dead witch spirits. She came back from the dead. Jeremy came back from the dead. I can see her being very blase about death. After all, all those dead people haven’t really ceased to exist on this earth. They have simply moved on to a different kind of existence. I can see her rationalizing it this way. Also, this way of thinking might lessen her grief. It might be a way for her to cope. All of this might also explain why she wasn’t concerned about her friends’ safety when she went after Stefan without any thought to Klaus. She didn’t seem to care that Klaus might come to Mystic Falls to look for Stefan and wreak havoc.

      b) This is how I am fanwanking this character already. She doesn’t care who gets hurt. She just wants what she wants – Stefan. She was somewhat like this before the sacrifice but it seems to have gotten worse now. She didn’t blink an eye at Andie’s death. Before the sacrifice, she at least gave lip service to other people’s safety. In general, I think that with each loss she cares less and less.

      If they show us very clearly that she thinks and feels all of this, it might be a good way of making Delena happen. Her relationship with Stefan can be seen as very self-destructive already. It is sort of like Jeremy and drugs. I don’t think it would have happened if her parents hadn’t died. The whole reason she got together with Stefan (old murderer dude) is that she was feeling all this grief that she could not share with anyone else. It was her self-destructive coping mechanism. And like Jeremy, she couldn’t/can’t see it for what it is. But unlike Jeremy, she was able to keep it from all parental figures. Jenna was in the dark and her parents were dead. She stepped in for Jeremy but there was no one to do the same for her. Anyway, now that she has experienced even more lose, I can see her going for Damon. But they have to explain what is going through her head more like they did with her relationship with Stefan in the pilot and next few eps.

      The problem with an arc about her appreciating other people’s lives is that she is still going to be stuck with the Salvatores. So how can the show reconcile her involvement with vampires who actively murder people to a new found appreciation of other people’s lives. Even if Stefan stops, there is still Damon. I am just not sure how it is going to work unless Damon is somehow turned human and it is about Delena learning to appreciate other people’s lives together. Her story is so tangled up with the Salvatores’ story.

      LOL. Lots of fanwanking happening with this character

      • The problem with an arc about her appreciating other people’s lives is that she is still going to be stuck with the Salvatores. So how can the show reconcile her involvement with vampires who actively murder people to a new found appreciation of other people’s lives.

        Exactly.

          • They could give Elena an arc that is separate from the Salvatores just like Stefan has an arc right now that is largely separate from Delena. I would like to see what happens to the Salvatores when they don’t have Elena to have a relationship through. Elena could come back with a better appreciation for life or, better yet, a brain. I don’t know how that would work because she would have to come back to the Salvatores eventually. Maybe it would create a distance between the Salvatores and her because they would have learned to get along without her and she would be looking at them in a new light. Maybe closer to the end of the series? Idk. random thoughts. I can’t even imagine what Elena’s version of the Ripper arc would be. Something to do with connecting with the person she was before the car crash I guess. That might be interesting because we have only seen Elena in mourning. It has only been a year since the deaths of her parents and Jenna just died. It might be interesting to see what Elena is like without all this crap. OOOH! Amnesiac!Elena arc like the Amnesiac!Eric arc in True Blood. A way to see her essential self I guess?? LOL. And she could be lost somewhere. For whatever reason she ends up living somewhere else with other people and the Mystic Falls crew are trying to find her. LOL. OMG! How awesome would it be if she was hanging out with Elijah?

            Thoughts that come to my brain when I have had about 4 hrs of sleep

            • Something to do with connecting with the person she was before the car crash I guess.

              I initially thought that was kind of the point of season 1. Elena had changed and we got a glimpse of who she was pre-crash during the first roadtrip with Damon. I thought over the season she would get back to that person while retaining the characteristics of someone who suffered a major loss. Yet we’re now in season 3 and she still has to be talked into anything that resembles fun.

  13. Do you guys think that Damon/Stefan=Katherine/Elena in the sense that each pair is really just diff versions of the same person? This is what my old fandom friend use to say (she has quit the show now). I guess it makes some sense because each person in that pair defines himself/herself as being *not* the other person.

    • I think they’re working on different forms of definition? Since Damon has defined himself by his love for Katherine and his feelings of inferiority towards Stefan. While Stefan defines himself by…it’s hard to say. Part of what defines him is people always choosing him over Damon, but he’s also able to be what people want from him? He’s eager to do it and mask and version of his true self other people might see.

      Elena is a character I don’t understand, but I’d say she fits Damon’s mold more. Elena is shaped, because the narrative refuses to give her much more, by her love for Stefan. She doesn’t ask questions when she should. She isn’t going into this blind, but she doesn’t actually understand what she’s becoming involved with.

      Stefan falls into Katherine’s mold (the fact that he doesn’t love her and she loves him (he fell in love with a lie and she created his lie…there’s a better way to phrase that, but I can’t think of it at the moment) would be perfect if not for minor and major retcons for Katherine in the finale last season and to a lesser extent in Klaus) in that he creates the lives that he wants for himself. Does that make sense?

      • I didn’t really answer the question did I? I guess I think they define each other in ways that would be interesting if the show was willing to take what was going on to it’s full extent.

        So I don’t think Stefan/Damon are different versions of the same person, at least not of each other, but they do inform each other as characters. They are in opposition and defined by that. It’s a little bit less more messy with Katherine and Elena since there isn’t a lot to work with when it comes to Elena. But I’d say she’s more of a female!Damon than a “good” Katherine (because even Katherine had the sense to get the fuck out of dodge when she figured out what Klaus was).

        • Does that make sense?

          I think so?? I have to mull it over but this reminds me of something that went through my mind when Damon kept telling Elena – I choose you – or some variation thereof. I kept thinking that Elena=1864 Damon. I don’t exactly remember what my rationale was. I have so many theories about this show. LOL. Considering how bad it is, this show inspires a lot of thinking.

  14. Found the “Bad Forwood News” stuff while trolling on tumblr. Don’t people know by now that JP has a PhD in trolling?

    I don’t even understand how Forwood can kiss and have sex if his saliva is poisonous to her. Is it only dangerous when he has shifted or is in the process of shifting? But Klaus bit into Katherine without shifting to demonstrate that is blood cures wolf bites….which was already weird.

    • Just yesterday I was wondering if, while Tyler and Caroline are fighting, his werewolf instincts might kick in and he might want to physically attack her. How is that not a possibility?

      The less said about the bad Forwood news the better. Or at least until I talk about it on the next podcast. The possibility, of course, doesn’t even make sense.

  15. If Elena’s goal was to simply establish contact with Stefan and not save him, would that have been less ridiculous? Let’s say she knew there was no way she could get him away from Klaus just yet. Her goal on this mission was to help him hold on to his “humanity” and not go completely off the deep end. Basically, a stop gap measure until they had a real solution to the problem that is Klaus. She wanted to talk to him and had some plan for them to stay in contact without Klaus finding out. Everything would have played out the same. Stefan would have rejected the plan because it is too risky for her. If Klaus found them out, he would know that Elena is alive.

    I am thinking that this way, everyone doesn’t look quiet as stupid because they are acknowledging their limitations and the huge obvious threat standing in the way of their goal (Klaus).

    What do you guys think?

    • Yeah, I guess that would’ve been less ridiculous. But I still would’ve had it happen in episode two if only to eliminate the useless trek in the mountains.

  16. Woah! Why is the bottom of the comment section brown? Is there a limit of about 100 comments per post on this blog? Is it going to cost you in some way, Alta?

    • Are you on a computer or on something like an iPad? When I use my iPad, sometimes it shows me brown for the rest of the comments.

      The only limit there is the amount of time a comment can be replied to before someone has to start a new comment.

      • Oh, ok. My computer is not working right now so I am using my old netbook right now. That is probably why I am seeing brown.

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