4.17: Red streaks of rebellion because we’re in the 80s

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145 thoughts on “4.17: Red streaks of rebellion because we’re in the 80s

  1. It’s possible that Caroline’s sadness over Tyler leaving is being given more focus than Bonnie’s grief over Jeremy. We’ve certainly seen more of Caroline’s sadness: episode 14, 15, 16, 17 (based on the webclip), and possibly 18 since she’s in that episode. On the other side, there’s Bonnie: episode 15, maybe 17 since she’s in it, and she’s not in 18.

    Will Bonnie’s scenes grieving over Jeremy even equal the number of phone calls Caroline’s made to Tyler so far?

  2. Why is Caroline drinking those leftovers from the other party guests … regardless if vampire or not that looks disgusting.

    Why do you think Stefan thought it would be smarter to call Klaus who didn´t even believe in all that Silas stuff and not Bonnie, who is the key for his masterplan. Or do you think they will let Caroline comment on it and tell us that she is with Aja?

    • Right? I was like, “This is the wrong time to have her stick it to Klaus, because he’s right: what she’s doing is disgusting.”

      Stefan likes working with men more than he likes working with women?

      They BETTER not have anyone tell us that Aja’s here. I want to see the moment she comes. A scene of Bonnie/Abby talking or Bonnie/Rudy or even Rudy/Abby and then they here a knock and Abby goes, “She’s here.” Any other scenario is unacceptable.

      But nice going, Stefan, inviting Klaus over without warning Caroline. That’s not a jackass move at all.

  3. This new look they have for Elena is not working for me. What with the hair? What with the boots? Anyways… The fact that Damon is okay with leaving town, romancing and possibly having sex with an Elena deprived of her emotions, therefore does not have her full agency, makes me quite sick. And some people are cheering for this? If I were a DE shipper, i’d feel cheated and grossed out they’re doing it that way. Apparently, this episode will be about Elena manipulating Damon for her own gain. The sypnosis says she has an agenda. Whatever it is, I hope it involves staying away from the Salvatore brothers’ creepy obssession for her for a while. While I don’t see the point of Emotions-turned off Elena, it might be a way for her to do things on her own. Last episode, she was throwing truth bombs out there…loved it. But i don’t see it happening for long so…we’ll see.
    As for Bonnie, I have high hopes for her. I want to see her grieve Jeremy’s death properly and maybe starting to have some sort of mental break-down like Elena did. I sort of hate that her current storyline is somebody using her again. When it’s not Damon and Stefan, it’s someone else. Give the girl a break, seriously. I just want them to give Bonnie enough screentime to see what’s going on with her. The thing with Bonnie is that I’m not even sure that she processed this. She seems to be thinking it’s temporary. Last episode she said “I’m gonna bring him back.”, and she seems pretty set on killing these people. I want to know how Bonnie feels about doing this, without Caroline being a mouthpiece on Bonnie’s whereabouts, and telling me how she feels. I want to know all that from Bonnie. They’re going to have Naevia from Spartacus – I mean Cynthia Addai-Robinson – as a mentor for her, and I’m not sure what she’s going to be teaching her that Silas/Shane doesn’t already know but I can’t wait. I’m a Spartacus fan, I can’t wait to see her on The Vampire Diaries, even if it’s a small role and she’ll probably die anyways.
    At this point in the story, i don’t see the point of Caroline on the show. I see the point of Matt…he’s the one human character. But Caroline is just…another vampire. Her character is so meek and the bad writing doesn’t help. She is not even allowed to be a good friend to Bonnie anymore. She couldn’t help Elena keep it together; she was just standing there, freaking out. So, what’s the point of Caroline?
    I think it’s nonsensical that Bonnie is only in one episode out of two this season when the main plot is so tightly connected to her character and her bloodline. Everything Bonnie does has an impact in making the A plot go forward. When she’s not in an episode, it seems like the writers are missing the point. Why are we supposed to care when there’s such heavy stuff going on with Bonnie/Silas that Elena has turned off her emotions? It’s like you see a Tsunami in Japan, and then suddenly your TV switches to valley girls shopping.
    This has no place in the main plot, I don’t see what they are trying to accomplish by doing this. Bring the focus back on Elena to show a side of her that we’re supposed to have never seen? I don’t know.
    I really feel like the show would be much better if they kept Elena as a human protagonist that just happens to be thrown in the middle of the supernatural, not a doppelganger, not a vampire, a human girl that happens to be in the middle of all this because she can’t help but draw the bizarre. She could be relevant without any special powers if they just made her character consistent and wrote her as “compassionate” as she’s supposed to be.
    They’re just trying to make her more special and special to hide her irrelevance as a protagonist, and it’s just not working. They don’t know what to do with characters outside of love triangles, lame-ass redemption arcs and killing them off.
    Anyways, I just hope Bonnie gets something to do this episode and I hope it’s about her for once.
    I don’t know what they’re going with the show. Do they even care? I am not quite sure. The writing seems…sloppier, for some reason, this season…as in worse than usual. And that’s saying a lot for the Vampire diaries. They should get their shit together because I don’t see what they’re trying to do anymore.

    • Hi!

      The fact that Damon is okay with leaving town, romancing and possibly having sex with an Elena deprived of her emotions, therefore does not have her full agency, makes me quite sick.

      It’s gross the amount of times they’ve had Elena say to Damon, “Admit it, you like me better [with no choices].” It’s not like Elena is going to get amnesia when she turns her switch back on, so if she feels this way about Damon, then why is she in love with him? Why doesn’t she think he’s gross?

      The thing with Bonnie is that I’m not even sure that she processed this. She seems to be thinking it’s temporary.

      Bonnie definitely has not processed this. Despite the number of days that have passed since Jeremy died, I’m pretty sure she’s only cried once: while she was on the island. After that, she became dead set on bringing him back.

      I haven’t caught up to Spartacus to the part where Cynthia is playing Naevia, but I’m excited for her appearance. I REALLY hope she doesn’t die. If Silas ends up killing her, how the heck is that not going to make Bonnie realize that it’s not Shane? To be honest, I really don’t think Bonnie would be/should be as in the dark about Silas as JP is writing her.

      I really feel like the show would be much better if they kept Elena as a human protagonist that just happens to be thrown in the middle of the supernatural, not a doppelganger, not a vampire, a human girl that happens to be in the middle of all this because she can’t help but draw the bizarre.

      I feel like they could’ve even kept her as a doppelganger (just please stop making her blood be the end all be all for every plot). They could’ve had her learn to fight, train, and gain power and agency and control THAT way. Instead, she becomes a vampire and what happens? She still gets kidnapped by Klaus. Smh. I’ve felt since the end of season 2 that the best way to write Elena as a protagonist was to have her be involved an care about her friends who ARE supernatural: Bonnie, Caroline since she was turned, and Tyler.

      I wrote meta on Caroline that I’m going to post in a comment below.

      • I agree about the writing of Elena. And you know what? She doesn’t even have to be an action girl. She could just be smart and resourceful, be the hero of her own story, write diaries about strange things that happen, whatever. She could be active without having any superpowers. It would make more sense if her character put her friends and family before the Salvatore brothers. She could have tension with Stefan and Damon without getting involved. They could still be the center characters without putting Elena in this trophy position and damsel in distress archetype. She needs to be more of an actor in her own story. She needs to be a better friend, because I’m forgetting why these people stick by her side. She’s the angel of death. Why are you staying with her and jeopardizing your and your loved ones’ safety? Because Stefan and Damon told you to? I don’t know. She needs to prove herself deserving of such devotion.

        • Someone once suggested that Elena could’ve been the researcher of the group. They were using the fact that she writes, wanted to be an author, and went to the news station to dig up info about Stefan as justification.

          • It reminds of something. What about Elena’s dreams and ambitions? She’s about to graduate but we don’t know what she wants to do with her life. Being in a Salvatore sandwich for the rest of her life? She mentioned writing and since she doesn’t seem to be attending classes, I don’t see her doing any job that requires attention. But writing requires some credits, perseverance, passion. It’s difficult and unrewarding sometimes. Maybe she could be a journalist, but does she even care enough? She could sell her stories if she still wrote in her diary. But she’s not writing anymore…it seems. Remind me why this show is called Vampire Diaries?
            I wish they made them talk about the future, things they like/dislike. What are their passions? What do they want to do if they live past 20?
            Remember when Elena was at her parents’ lake house with Stefan and they were talking about the future they could have? I want Elena and her friends to have a Salvatore-free gathering where they just talk about their hopes and dreams, their fears. They need to be with each other and not talk about the supernatural. Talk about yourselves, talk about the future.
            These characters don’t feel real. They feel hollow. And it’s because they’re not letting them be in the real world.

            • What about Elena’s dreams and ambitions? She’s about to graduate but we don’t know what she wants to do with her life.

              When they got to Whitmore, she said, “I’m not sure college is in my future anymore.” And that was it -__-. With everything Elena’s gone through and scene, she could’ve become a fantasy/sci-fi writer. She could’ve used that as an outlet for all she’s been through.

              Remember when Caroline wanted to be a journalist?

  4. “The Vampire Diaries”: The last time we saw Bonnie, she was scaring us more than a little. Is she really willing to go full-villain and bring back all the evil vampires, witches, werewolves, and who-knows-what-else just to reanimate the small handful of good ones? “Well, she could. She’s at a fork int the road, and that is definitely one of the prongs in the road,” says executive producer Julie Plec. “Definitely, we haven’t seen the height of intensity of Bonnie’s storyline yet. This Shane/Silas person has an enormous amount of control over Bonnie. Shane as a human, Professor Shane, with no supernatural abilities whatsoever, was able to get such a strong hold on Bonnie that she came to believe she couldn’t control her own magic without him. Now that you add a supernatural component to that, it becomes really extreme and really severe.”

    Source: http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2013/03/10-spoilers-vampire-diaries-witch-woes-jim-and-pam-on-the-office-and-more.html

    So when are we going to see this? In episode 17? Because she isn´t in episode 18 and then episode 19 is the prom and I seriously can´t see Silas showing up there aswell. And episode 20 is the backdoor pilot with probably only a few scenes of the Mystic Falls gang.

      • You mean it’ll be the C or D plot of episode 17. Because Stefan/Klaus/Caroline have the A plot while Damon/Elena have the B plot. Anything involving Bonnie will probably be the C plot, which is freaking ridiculous.

    • Seriously, when are we going to see the intensity? Is it going to be like a short burst of intensity? Because they’re letting go of opportunities to show Bonnie’s story continuing. She wasn’t in 16, who knows how many scenes she’ll have in 17, and she’s gone from 18. Plus there are all of these people taking over the Silas story now: Stefan, Damon, Klaus.

  5. Julie is always descibing these amazing storylines,that only end up being one scene. Maybe she doesn’t watch the final cut or something.

  6. Meta: Caroline has a meek presence

    This is how I’ve justified Caroline’s apparent flip-flopping. I was talking to Olu and I realized that Caroline either curves toward whoever’s the strongest presence in the room or she stays immobile.

    You saw how she was telling Bonnie that she sounded crazy and she couldn’t kill 12 people in 4.15? I think it was because of Matt (and Elena). If Matt was for Bonnie doing it, I legit think Caroline would’ve been too, or she at least wouldn’t have said anything. Yeah, she was talking the loudest, but she’s always talking loud. Bonnie was literally sitting on the other side of the table by herself. Now it’s true that Bonnie was insistent with her plan, but she didn’t have numbers behind her. Matt wasn’t jumping for Bonnie’s plan. And Jeremy is Elena’s brother, and if she’s not immediately okaying a plan to bring him back to life, then she must be against it, right?

    When the Salvatores were shutting Elena down, Caroline didn’t say a word. When Stefan came up with the idea for Damon to make Elena feel like everything’s okay, she didn’t say a word. Of course people can fill in that she disagreed, but I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s about her agreeing or disagreeing, I think it’s about her having a weak presence (which isn’t the same thing as saying she’s weak). She isn’t a power player or an antagonizer. Unlike Matt, Bonnie, Jeremy, and Tyler (and Elena), Caroline has never ever ever ever disagreed with the group or with a Salvatore or stood alone. She’s never walked away.

    Damon’s talked a couple of times, to her face, about Tyler dying. She hasn’t said anything. I don’t think it’s because she’s scared or because of her history with Damon. She has a weak presence. She even told Tyler that Damon didn’t care about him dying. But lo, this season, after Connor shot Tyler, she said she was going to kick Connor’s ass. I’m positive she heard Tyler throwing a fit about Connor plus this was after Tyler had run to the Salvatores, and Stefan was there, and Stefan had decided that Connor was a threat. So that was Tyler + Stefan (and so Damon and Elena, etc).

    Caroline’s a mean queen to girls, especially girls talking to her boyfriends, but when it comes to anything big, she falls in line, no matter who’s leading the line.

    She turned Elena away when she came to see Bonnie after Abby died. There was no power play here. Bonnie wasn’t explicitly against Elena (although, we can actually say that Bonnie had a bigger presence than Elena there. Imagine if Bonnie had been outright angry). The bigger thing, though, is that this is a relationship she was used to: Bonnie and Elena were in a rough patch.

    But check it: two episodes later, the same Elena that she’d turned away from Bonnie calls her to ask a favor of Bonnie. Bonnie needs to help Alaric. The line is forming and it’s Elena with Ric behind her. Versus Bonnie with no one behind her.

    So she asks Bonnie for the favor for Elena.

    Later on she yells at Abby for her plan to leave. Which potential was stronger: Abby, who she didn’t know, leaving or Bonnie and her inevitable anger/disappointment when she found out?

    Tyler’s friend Chris gets killed. Where’s the line? Who’s the strongest presence? Tyler and Hayley (someone Caroline doesn’t know?) or Stefan, with Elena and Damon? Then later when Klaus is trapped in the house, she’s suddenly angry. Klaus us literally trapped, i.e. in a weaker position than Tyler. So she’s big and bold and on Tyler’s side. But when Stefan was commiserating and saying they’re the same as Klaus, she agreed with him.

    I think it’s interesting to read Caroline as a follower. It’s fodder for conflit (imagine one of the characters going “wtf?” one of those days when she goes with the strongest presence). In fic, though, because I just know the show isn’t doing it on purpose. They think Caroline is cool and badass, and JP sees her as the second female lead.

    What do you all think?

  7. And I’ll say why Caroline’s flip-flopping is different from when Matt/Bonnie/Jeremy do things that cater to the Trio.

    Bonnie is an antagonizer. She’s walked away, she’s defied the group; she’s worked alone (to save Klaus), etc. My interpretation of Caroline doesn’t work for Bonnie, because…..well can’t you feel when someone’s being written out of character. When Bonnie first became a thing to talk about in Fandom, it wasn’t because she followed and toed the line. She stood alone; she had her own view. Yes, she stands alone less now, but the moments when she does stand separate feel truer to her character than when she’s, oh I don’t know, killing herself to save Elena when she didn’t do the same for Abby.

    My interpretation of Caroline doesn’t work for Matt either. Matt has: walked away and gone off by himself (he started out as an outcast). This is after he broke up with Caro + after Vicky was sent away, he’s questioned Stefan’s judgment (in 3.22), and he’s not crazy about Damon. I don’t think Matt is as much of an antagonizer as Bonnie (I think Bonnie’s the biggest antagonizer), but he doesn’t occupy the same cupboard as Caroline. He helps now, but he helps Elena specifically, and he’s shown willingness to come up with another plan to help Elena instead of following what the Salvatores say (which is what Caroline is currently doing with this switch thing). I think there’s a reason why neither Matt nor Bonnie were present when the Salvatores carried out the plan, and we talked about it in the 4.15 podcast.

    I wouldn’t have labeled Tyler as an antagonizer if his season 4 storyline didn’t happen. Tyler’s an antagonizer. That doesn’t, to me, mean that he’s an aggressive character (as an archetype) or that he’s a leader (personality-wise. Like, people don’t just fall behind Tyler), but he is willing to stop following the party line, even if it makes him an outcast.

    Maybe I’m using the wrong word by saying antagonizer. Maybe I mean contrarian.

    And I think Tyler is one where Caroline is not.

    Elena’s contrarian. We’ve seen this. We’ve seen her go against the majority in order to do something she felt she needed to do or that she felt was right.

    Finally, Jeremy. He doesn’t sway with the crowd or with a personality stronger than his, and the first instance of this (as far as the supernatural/big decisions go) is when he reacted to what he read in Elena’s diary back in season 1.

    • I agree with this meta. Caroline’s the ultimate team player, which could be the point of her character, but that is really not. She’s written to be almost as strong a presence as Elena, but even Bonnie, that is constantly shoved aside, has way more presence than she could ever have, even when she does not say anything, therefore Caroline doesn’t come out as a very important character. You could almost not have her in the narrative and have some other character do what she did. When you think about it, what did she bring to the storyline that could not have been established without her?
      In season 1, I got the the point of Caroline’s character. She had a strong personnality. She had flaws, and that made her more interesting to me. She had a drive. She spoke her mind, had opinions. It was very clear. Her friendship with Bonnie and Elena was interesting and gave us insight on the type of relationship these three girls had.
      In season 2, she had conflict with Bonnie (for a while) and struggle with being a vampire to work with and it made her storyline relevant.
      I also think season 2 is the season where Caroline becomes this character that is defined by who she dates, who is attracted to her, etc. She gradually becomes a motivator for people around her to be better, I think.
      I don’t think becoming a vampire is the best thing that ever happened to Caroline’s character, considering how they used it to diminish her flaws, make her more understanding and “perfect”, instead of trying to work with who she already was and how it could affect her relationships, negatively maybe.
      They don’t take risks with Caroline’s character – outside of having her kidnapped, it’s starting to become an habit – anymore and she just seems to be…there.
      Being a positive person, blonde and pretty and having caught the attention of a 1000 year old vampire and being a Stelena fangirl…that is not a character to me. I came to like Caroline in season 1. Her blunt honesty, her insecurities, her desire to be “everyone’s favorite” made her much more interesting than vampire Caroline can ever be now.

      Your meta about Bonnie being an antagonizer… You’re right. It was true at some point and she is being written out of character now. They make Bonnie be okay with everything. That is not her. She is firey, moral and she’s supposed to be the one with strong principles. Why doesn’t she call the Salvatores/Elena’s out anymore? She did it back in season 1/2. She even said – if i recall – “I’m not gonna make you choose Elena” and walked away. She set Damon on fire/gave him aneurysms when he stepped out of line. She told Stefan to keep his brother on a leash or else she’ll take care of it, that she’ll protect people at whatever the cost. Back then, she really meant people…not Elena, people. I don’t know when “people” became Elena Gilbert. They’re writing her OOC to somehow validate the Salvatores and Elena’s actions. That is just…a bad thing. Now, I’m a fanon (not canon) Bamon shipper and if they do make Bamon one day – and I’m pretty sure it will happen because one day, they’ll run out of people that can deal with Damon’s crap, it’s going to be…not something I want to turn my TV on for. I will not be here for this, hopefully. I’ll have long quit the show hopefully because if they’re doing it one day, with Damon and Stefan stepping all over Bonnie like they don’t owe her anything, like she owes them (rolling my eyes)…That will be a bloody mess.

      About the show in general, I feel like they should explore something other than the vampire mythology because the vampires are not so fascinating anymore. They dropped way too much information on vampires and even if at some point it was mysterious, exciting, it is not anymore. They made a big deal about Klaus and the originals…turns out their big dream in life is being regular, normal, dating the high school’s cheerleader captain, going to prom, draw ponies for god’s sake, etc. Am I supposed to take them seriously? Really?
      This show doesn’t know how to write villains and make them something we’re supposed to see as a deadly threat to the heroes. So, the vampires are way too…tacky, now? I don’t know how to explain it, it’s just the way they portray them that make them so…cheap.
      So, I think they should consider writing plots that revolve around either witches (they won’t do that…it would put too much focus on Bonnie), or something else that is not vamoure-related.
      If only, they had least had good villains.
      I wish they had a villain that really enjoyed messing with the protagonists’ lives, messing with people, just for pleasure and does not have a sad backstory to explain it all, doesn’t need to leave a receipt, justify his actions, a villain that just enjoys being evil because it feels good, or has some kind of goal, but still enjoys his rampage, handles his mess because he likes his mess. I want a villain that, when he comes into a room, they don’t sass or crack jokes, get chummy with him, use sarcasm, because they are way too tense and nervous, and scared out of their minds. I want a villain that goes after Bonnie, so that they can’t have her magic to help them for once (so maybe they can learn to appreciate her), and they’ll be out of options because this villain does not care about Elena’s preciousness, Caroline’s blondeness, Damon’s manpole, Stefan’s hair, etc. I want a villain that is really here to hurt and not leave an apology note after that.

      Just let Bonnie learn about her family history, have one storyline that is about her, have her personnality back. At least to not look too racist, because you are not even trying not to look racist. That’s pathetic.
      Have a real villain, vampire diaries. I want an evil so wicked, it does not have a shred a humanity to make us feel sorry for him/her. I want it to strike where it hurts, to be intelligent, cunning and…the opposite of Klaus, the opposite of Katherine, Elijah, Damon. I don’t want a woobie, dammit. I hate using these three words together but that’s what I want: pure.unadultared.evil.
      Have Elena be a real friend. I want to see this compassion you’re telling us about but not showing. Either you have her selfish and you acknowledge it, by having her friends say it. But don’t pretend like she’s selfless when she’s the opposite of that.
      Have the girls be friends to each other. Have the girls be a friend to Bonnie, caring about her. Anything to show us that she’s more than a mean to an end. Her means to their end.
      Explore another mythology, because the show may be called “Vampire Diaries”, but no one writes in a diary anymore, and your so-called vampires are not really vampires, and they have nothing interesting about them anymore (we already know everything), and the writers are too univentive to come up with something relevant about them.
      I’ve seen amazing things on FF.net, but they’re not gonna do that.
      So, anything could be better than this…but witches would be great. Or werewolves. I like werewolves. I’m a Teen wolf fan. Maybe fairies or leprechauns or trolls (Not fairies because True Blood did it)…Whatever, really. I’m okay with anything because your vampires…lame.
      I’m just gonna say…They had something great with the slayer storyline. Unfortunately, they killed Jeremy. So…I don’t know. Come up with something. It doesn’t have to be big. it doesn’t have to be smart, because I know it’s out of your league. Just something you never did, because you are predictable Vampire Diaries. You’re not only offensive – which is a thing – you are predictable, which is worse.
      I’ll keep watching because this show has his hooks in me (Bonnie *sigh*) but I don’t expect anything.

      • I don’t think becoming a vampire is the best thing that ever happened to Caroline’s character, considering how they used it to diminish her flaws, make her more understanding and “perfect”, instead of trying to work with who she already was and how it could affect her relationships, negatively maybe.

        I don’t think so either. What was the line she said to Stefan when he was teaching her to hunt? “I’m a controlling neurotic freak on crack.” If that’s true, then shouldn’t that have created conflict between her and her friends? That assessment of what she would become as a vampire is not relevant anymore. She has perfect control at all times. She had less control over her emotions and what came out of her mouth when she was still human.

        Season 2 is when they stopped taking risks with Caroline. She became a fan favorite so they started writing her in a way so that she would not upset the majority.

        I’ll have long quit the show hopefully because if they’re doing it one day, with Damon and Stefan stepping all over Bonnie like they don’t owe her anything, like she owes them (rolling my eyes)…That will be a bloody mess.

        Yep. I hope I’ll have quit by then too.

        They dropped way too much information on vampires and even if at some point it was mysterious, exciting, it is not anymore.

        They literally told us everything we needed to know about vampires in the second season. Seriously, how much have we learned about vamps since then? Heck, I could even say they told us everything in the first season. And they’ve done 7 transition stories in four seasons (Vicky, Caroline, Jenna, Alaric, Bill, Abby, Elena).

        Stefan’s hair

        Lol. Oh my God, they really did have Klaus say that Stefan has nice hair. I had forgotten that.

        I wonder if JP has even talked with her team about introducing new supernatural creatures. Maybe she’ll do it when she’s done throwing everything, including the kitchen sink, at vampire Elena.

    • I’m so confused by the CW’s/JP’s choices. Why is there no webclip of Bonnie? Does Jeremy’s death really not matter anymore?

      This is the driest club scene I’ve ever seen. And are they now saying that Lexi was Damon’s coach, too?

      Now Rebekah’s willing to dance with Damon and Elena? Does anything important happen on this show?

      • Bonnie rarely ever makes it in the promo, webclips or stills, therefore I’m not surprised. As for Jeremy, it makes sense to me since whatever Elena is focused on at the moment is what the show decides to focus on. Elena doesn’t care about Jeremy at the moment, Bonnie does, but she’s not as important as Elena is, hence Jeremy’s death being trivialized. Don’t expect Caroline to care. Matt’s feelings are a non-issue to this show. Considering what kind of show it is, it does not surprise me. Delena and Rebekah will get more screentime than Bonnie this episode.

        As for does anything important ever happens? It definitely does. The world might collapse, folks may die under unexplained circumstances, 1 million people might suddenly turn grey and start dissecate for no reason (There’s something so malignous in how Elena and her boys get to choose who lives or dies…), but all we’re supposed to care is which Salvatore has the rights to Elena this episode. We’re also supposed to be happy that Elena gets to live another day while others die for it to be so.
        We’re supposed to be Team Damon or Stefan and go with the flow, I guess.

        People that write this show seem lazy to me in terms of storytelling and characterization.
        I’m sorry for Elena that she’ll never be more than the girl stuck in a love triangle between two siblings. She’s just nothing more. It’s all very shallow.

        • As for does anything important ever happens? It definitely does. The world might collapse, folks may die under unexplained circumstances, 1 million people might suddenly turn grey and start dissecate for no reason (There’s something so malignous in how Elena and her boys get to choose who lives or dies…), but all we’re supposed to care is which Salvatore has the rights to Elena this episode.

          This is true. How could I forget? ;(. Yet we’re supposed to be emotionally engaged with every character on this show.

          They’re definitely lazy.

      • Usually webclips are from the early parts of an episode … so maybe Bonnie won´t show up in the first 10/15 minutes, which would suck or she only has one scene in that episode and they didn´t want to tease that one.

        I don´t get Rebekah at all, how did she find Delena and why would she hang out with them if she could use that time to search for the cure or is Damon´s talk from last episode already getting into her head?

        • or she only has one scene in that episode and they didn´t want to tease that one.

          Someone I follow on Tumblr said that Bonnie probably only has one scene and if they’d made her the webclip, then they would’ve spoiled the one scene she has ;___;.

          You know what’s sad? The thought that Rebekah hides in bushes, waiting to see what the group will do next. Why isn’t she taking independent steps wrt this cure thing? She wants it; she knows they don’t want her to have it; yet she’s content in following them on their chases.

  8. “Elena having her humanity turned off doesn’t necessarily make her emotionless. It makes her less sensitive to pain — her own, and other people’s.”
    …What? I can’t find the source for this, i think it’s some fan’s headcanon or julie plec’s, I don’t know.

    • This clashes with what they keep saying on the show, whoever said it. “I don’t feel anything.” That’s what they say. They have no emotions. And that’s a bad writing choice, imo, and I talk about it in the 4.16 podcast.

      • They’re breaking their own canon basically. For what sake? Shipping? It’s ridiculous. Elena has no emotions. She can’t be jealous of Caroline and Stefan, it would imply she cares about Stefan with her emotions off…canon says vampire can’t feel anything when they turn it off. How was she even mad at Caroline? I don’t get it. Was it all part of a plan to get out of town? Somehow, you mean to tell me that she can forget her dead brother but what she feels for the Salvatores goes beyond that?
        I don’t know. I hope it’s just a made-up quote.
        Talking about emotions, I hope you plan on commenting on Damon’s little “Emotions are overrated” bit in the podcast…Left me gasping in shock tbh. Now, I think very lowly of Damon and I always make it obvious on my tumblr, but this line…It shows that not only Damon would do anything to have Elena…even if it’s not really her, which tells you right away the basis of this ship, but dude has no self-respect whatsover. It’s not that I feel sorry for him but settling for that really shows what kind of opinion he has of himself vs Stefan. Stefan has and will always think he deserves Elena, no matter what he says. Stefan wants season 1 Elena, the pristine, “good, selfless” person he sees in his mind. He won’t settle for anything else. That’s the only girl he wants, he wants the “whole package”. Damon doesn’t care as long as he can get in Elena’s pants. This reinforces my headcanon that it was, it is and it will always be about Katherine for Damon. I don’t think he cares about who Elena is, what she believes in, etc. He just wants a taste of something that burns hot, high and fast. You know what he said to Elena on the road? That’s what he wants, not her.
        The sad thing in all this is that neither of them actually care about what’s best for Elena. They care about themselves, what they want for her, not what she wants for herself. I don’t think Elena knows that anymore, btw. I think they managed to become her entire world, the only people she cares about genuinely. If it were not the case, she would have cast them out the moment she planned on burning the house. She would have moved on from them, but she didn’t. She wanted them here. It hurt, but she would have gotten over it, because she has those two guys that just won’t go, and her so-called friends. Even if I’m pretty sure she would have grieved in Stefan or Damon’s arms.

        It’s kind of creepy and it wouldn’t be that much if they went by the books a little. Make Damon care about somebody else…But they would never.
        Anyways…”Emotions are overrated”, how can you even make him say that? Of course, free will is overrated, consent is overrated, so fetch. Are we supposed to think this is the result of Damon’s “character development”? Poor Ian can’t even tell what kind of character he’s playing anymore. Damon is so awful, he somehow has to convince himself that his character’s the victim. Awkward.

        • Talking about emotions, I hope you plan on commenting on Damon’s little “Emotions are overrated” bit in the podcast…Left me gasping in shock tbh.

          I didn’t comment on it. What I find most egregious is that that quote doesn’t apply to Damon the way he used it for Elena. He says “emotions are overrated” in relation to Elena no feeling anything, but he’s literally never been in Elena’s situation (or Stefan’s before her). No one’s ever forced him to stop feeling. How dare he tell Elena that emotion is overrated when he’s know for his emotional tantrums? What a gigantic asshole.

      • On the other hand, though, they seem to have forgotten that Rose once said that the switch doesn’t even exist, that it’s just a fairytale for baby vamps.

        • Yes, it’s true that Rose said that. So, do they just have the illusion thay they don’t have any emotions? How does that even work?
          This show is plotholes and continuity errors all over.

        • I remember her saying that the switch was only relevant for baby vampires but that once a vampire reached Damon’s and Stefan’s ages, the switch was no longer a factor. It makes sense as far as making sure a baby vampire won’t become so overwhelmed that they self-destruct. Or become so overwhelmed that they do things that expose vampires to the wrong people. But then season 3 came and Stefan being forced to turn off his (not supposed to exist) switch was part of a big storyline. Smh.

    • Thanks, Kathrin!

      So Elena’s going to kick Damon’s butt? Joy.*Sigh.* I just feel….it’s not really her winning. You know? I mean he had enough power over her to make her like this.

  9. On this week’s Vampire Diaries, Damon (Ian Somerhalder) takes Elena (Nina Dobrev) to the city that never sleeps where, not surprisingly, Damon got a lot of action. But was one of his conquests Stefan’s best friend Lexi (Arielle Kebbel)?

    Vomiting. The only thing that will make this worthwhile is if he makes a joke about her obviously wanting to sleep with Stefan but not being able to get anywhere on that front. And even that will not make watching these two sleep together worth it. Do the writers even remember Lee? If this was a better show I would imagine that Lee and Lexi sometimes spent years apart and slept with other people but this is TVD which means that they had to see each other every ten seconds for their love to be a true romance.

    Elena kicking Damon’s ass makes no mythological sense considering older vampires should be stronger than younger ones no matter what emotions are going on considering the strength seems to come with age, no matter the circumstances (like the tomb vampires being stronger than the Salvatores despite being entombed for so long, etc.) of the vampire.

    • If this was a better show I would imagine that Lee and Lexi sometimes spent years apart and slept with other people but this is TVD which means that they had to see each other every ten seconds for their love to be a true romance.

      Yep.

      I thought the same thing about their age difference, but considering Elena was able to block Kol with a dresser and kick Caroline’s butt last week, she might be continuing her kick as a ridiculously strong baby vampire.

      It’s irritating that these writers set up a rule and then become impatient with the rule. Like, what?

    • Lee is with Zach, Carter, Harper, Slater and this woman of which Damon snapped the neck of after asking if she lived alone in season 2 chilling on Mount Forgottenus. Bonnie probably hangs out there too when she’s not in the episode.
      What if Damon lets Elena beat him up because he’s not willing to hurt her? Oh no, that doesn’t sound like my favourite sociopathic asshole. He’d be dead before he let Elena be in control.

  10. I think I’m just going to watch the Bonnie scenes of this episode and see how it goes. I haven’t heard good things about everything else. I don’t know how this episode could be worse than 4.16, but they’ve done it. I just have an overwhelming urge to NOT hear any of them talk, especially if they’re going to talk about Bonnie.

    I was going to wait until the end of the season to bring back (and remake) a post I made in season 3, but considering my feelings towards this episode, I’m going to do it after I watch the Bonnie scenes. There’s no way I can wait until the end of the season.

  11. Not much to say about this crapfest. I just can´t believe how they could screw up Bonnie´s storyline so much in those last minutes.

    And I bet with you that the editor of this episode, at least cut 2 scenes for Bonnie – 1. The Bonnie/Ruby/Stefan scene (because I saw a bts pic with Rick, Kat and Paul) and 2. That scene when Stefan (urgh go away, why couldn´t it have been Caroline) wants to tell her again what happened with Jeremy and then they cut to that dreadful Klaroline scene. You could see in the last shot that they the scene was not over and we would have gotten a reaction from her, only the editor of the episode probably thought it would be more important to let Klaus shame Caroline about saving her friend. Smh.

    I think in retrospect that might be the first episode of the season that I outright hated. Although they introduced a coven for the first time, but of course that one couldn´t last 😦

    Also what is with that indestructable white oak stake, it can´t burn to ashes when used on a Original but when Silas stakes Klaus with it, it simply breaks apart.

    • It’s amazing how fast they screwed it up. It’s almost like someone dared them. I feel like everything Bonnie did in this episode was wrong. Just wrong wrong wrong. Why the sacrifice happen so fast? Why did she change her mind about killing 12 people? Why does she have to learn about Jeremy’s death for a 3rd time? And why did she say, “Please tell me we got the cure?” Does she not know that, at the time, the cure was only for one person?

      I just watched the final Klaroline scene. It’s amazing how I didn’t watch the full episode yet the stupidity still hits me full-force. How does Klaus know that arithmetic isn’t Caroline’s strong point? Why does Caroline feel bad to the point of tears about killing 12 people when, as she knew the night before, the alternative is Bonnie being dead?

      They only introduced the idea of a coven for convenience.

      I don’t understand why the white oak stake didn’t kill Klaus. Because it has to touch his heart? That kind of doesn’t make sense to me. If the stake is so special then it should be that it kills him no matter where you insert it. Instead it has to be inserted in his heart specifically. So it’s just like a regular stake. So it’s specialness has disappeared.

      • Also why did we get all those scenes with Bonnie walking around questioning herself if in the end she was mindcontrolled by Silas from the start of episode 15? Why did they waste all those scenes on this if in the end Bonnie can´t even remember anything she did.

        Did you also see the Klaroline scene where they are walking in the woods trying to find the place where the sacrifice happens?
        There is some kind of build up (awful to watch) to that last Klaroline scene. It starts with Klaus talking about the allure of the “darkness” to people who are pure hearted or something, that´s one of the Klaus/Caroline/Stefan scenes, this one is in Shane´s office and they are searching for infos on this expression triangle and you see conflicted Caroline when Klaus says that. But then she conveniently finds a book that describes how the sacrifce works.

        Then in the one in the woods where they are walking around to find the sacrifical place they have Klaroline together because Caroline didn´t want to trust Klaus with Bonnie and there is banter because Caro thinks that he can´t read a map (and I´m just sitting her and thinking, why does this have to take place now. They know that Bonnie is around to sacrifice 12 witches to get the power that is needed to drop the veil and they are just there small talking – it bothered me so much) and Klaus tells her that his friend Magellan taught him to read a map and Caroline is all about how he can have friends and if he also was drawn to him because of the darkness and that it doesn´t work like that and especially not on him and they bring back “can be saved” stuff but this time Caro says she realized that it can´t work for him and says “People who do terrible things are just terrible people. ” – and that brings us then to the last scene where Klaus shames and practically compares him going on a mass murdering spree to her trying to save her friend. And it looks like the show thinks he is right about that.
        That also reminds me of those interviews JoMo gave at the time they were shooting episode 18 I think where he said that the group and him are all the same he just has more centuries on them and they will be just like him … now I know where he got this stuff. From the writing for episode 17.

        Also in regards to the Klaus/Caroline/Stefan scenes … I was so bothered by them, because they did everything but not the thing that would be logical. Walking around in Shane´s office searching for a clue in regards to the expression triangle even though they know that Silas needs Bonnie and that (if Silas told her the plan she probably also knows how the last sacrifice works) and only after they saw that they needed a sacrifice of 12 witches they went to Bonnie – a little too late.
        Also then like I described with Klaroline, they wasted time on having small talk about stuff that is of no importance, while Bonnie/Silas started the sacrifice already. That also goes for Stefan who is calling Damon and having a talk about Elena and Katherine´s birthday while reassuring each other that they got the situation and don´t need help. How does this work in such a situation? How can they call each other at a time like this? Why are they so relaxed when in the end all they do is fail at everything they touch. I´m just so over it.

        Also that Caroline now killed the 12 witches reminds me that she was the one who was the loudest when Bonnie talked about the plan – probably already foreshadowing.
        It also reminds me of something you guys discussed at the beginning or in the middle of season 3. You talked about the writers starting a storyline with one character but then at some point giving this storyline to another character, while the first character doesn´t really get a closure or just disappears, like a relay race and Bonnie handed over her storyline to Caroline.
        The only question is if we are going to get Caroline angsting aroung because of what she did or if they only use this to prop Klaroline again and it looks like Caroline will only be a tool next week in whatever plot Klaus has got.

        Because it has to touch his heart?

        That´s probably the case it always has to be the heart. I think it is just like a normal stake but its specialness is that it can kill an Original which a normal stake can´t do.
        That also reminds me again of something … they always talk how you can kill a hybrid only with ripping their hearts out or cutting their heads off, but what makes Klaus so special that he doesn´t have to fear this? I know you guys already asked that question but this always comes back to me when they talk about killing him.
        And then I don´t get why the dagger doesn´t work on him … I always thought it isn´t the dagger who does the work but the ashes on the dagger and he should be affected by the ashes just like his siblings, because white oak is something that can harm him. Of course he isn´t affected by the silver dagger, but when the dagger punctures his heart the ashes come in contact with his heart, so he shouldn´t heal. But it´s just like the ashes are glued on the dagger and when ever you take the dagger out the vampires awake again – shouldn´t some of the ashes stick in the body and especially if the vamps have a beating heart then it should be in their blood system. All of this just doesn´t make any sense.

        Sorry for the rant.

        • and especially not on him

          Sorry I meant on “her”. Here I am trying to explain all those scenes and in the end I screw it up aswell lol.

        • Was she being controlled by Silas, though? That’s the thing; they gave us two conflicting accounts. Silas says that he can’t force Bonnie to do anything she doesn’t want to do. Yet Aja said, “If she’s working with Silas, then she’s lost.”

          I only watched the final Klaroline scene, which is funny because that single scene encompassed their entire dynamic. I had a feeling that Klaus’ words to Caroline about finding someone who’s less horrible had to do with something that went down between them earlier in the episode but I felt no desire to find out what it was.

          But then she conveniently finds a book that describes how the sacrifce works.

          Why would such a book exist and who wrote it?

          Caro says she realized that it can´t work for him and says “People who do terrible things are just terrible people. ”

          Oh so that’s what that was about. Why did she change her mind about him being able to be saved? She said when she was dying that him being in love with her meant he had a chance. Is it because he threatened Tyler’s life? Rme.

          Why are they so relaxed when in the end all they do is fail at everything they touch.

          Because as long as both of them are okay, then everything is fine at the base.

          It also reminds me of something you guys discussed at the beginning or in the middle of season 3. You talked about the writers starting a storyline with one character but then at some point giving this storyline to another character, while the first character doesn´t really get a closure or just disappears, like a relay race and Bonnie handed over her storyline to Caroline.

          That was something Ayaan noticed, and I brought it up on the podcast. It’s exactly what happened. Bonnie had the full intention of sacrificing 12 people. She was in her right mind. Yet when the sacrifice actually happened she was the most inactive/least important person there. It’s bullcrap.

          And Caroline is in the next episode. Even if I don’t watch her scenes, I will rage if she angsts about killing 12 people. Bonnie has yet to talk about Jeremy’s death because they literally keep hitting a reset button where she keeps finding out that he died. But not only have I watched Caroline angst about Tyler being gone but I might be watching her angst about murdering 12 people? Why doesn’t Julie Plec just do me a favor and kill Bonnie off? Then she’ll be able to focus on the two female leads where her interests lie.

          I always thought it isn´t the dagger who does the work but the ashes on the dagger and he should be affected by the ashes just like his siblings, because white oak is something that can harm him. Of course he isn´t affected by the silver dagger, but when the dagger punctures his heart the ashes come in contact with his heart, so he shouldn´t heal. But it´s just like the ashes are glued on the dagger and when ever you take the dagger out the vampires awake again – shouldn´t some of the ashes stick in the body and especially if the vamps have a beating heart then it should be in their blood system. All of this just doesn´t make any sense.

          I agree with all of this. The white oak should affect Klaus. And they’ve hinted that it does because his siblings were going to dagger him in season 3. Here’s the failure with the white oak stake that Esther made; this is what bothers me about it: we had an entire episode that was about Esther making that dagger. It’s purpose was to kill Klaus. You stake Klaus with it and it kills him. Now we finally get someone staking Klaus with it and…..it just makes him sick? Really? Why are there so many specifics when it comes to how to kill this guy?

          And let me guess, Klaus being near death next episode will make him see the light and he’ll apologize for being a meanie to Caroline. And that apology will last right up until he heels and feels better.

          Oh my God! What if, for whatever reason, Caroline’s blood is what can heel him?

          Never apologize for ranting about TVD on this blog. Lol.

  12. Watching only Bonnie’s scenes drives home how superficial this show is, how shallow this Silas story is. Literally just watching Bonnie’s scenes highlighted how things just happen. They just happen. Bonnie kept moving from step A to step B to step C and it didn’t feel like it had depth. I feel like she needed to talk more and to someone who isn’t Silas. Rudy came home and was immediately talking about Expression. Does he not know that Bonnie lost her ex? That’s what I’m talking about. Just completely focused on the plot.

    • I only watched 15 minutes of the ep (I can’t with Damon’s stupid face on my Tv anyways), mostly Bonnie’s parts, and it comforted me in my decision to drop the series for a while. I’m not even sure I’ll keep reading fics at this point. The show is just so ek and meh right now. I can’t even appreciate Bonnie because they are screwing her up. It feels like reading bad fanfiction.
      Yeah, things kind of happen on the show. It feels like a dream sequence, (Damon’s).
      And mostly, another ep with nobody giving a crap about Jeremy’s death or having convenient temporary memory loss. Death is no big deal on tvd, unless it’s those three idiots. Then, the world must stop spinning upon its axis.
      Another ep with bloody retcon that makes no sense in the show’s timeline.
      Another ep with ship-baiting…sorry julie doesn’t work for some of us.
      TVD or as like to call it “Plot, what plot?”
      Why do they even have KG on this show? Why do they call a character somebody’s mentor when said character doesn’t make it to the next ep and teaches nothing to the one that needs it? What’s the point of coming up with theories and speculations when the show doesn’t give a rat’s ass about continuity? They don’t think their shit through the end.
      Bollocks, again and again.

      • What’s the point of coming up with theories and speculations when the show doesn’t give a rat’s ass about continuity?

        Exactly. This is part of the reason Olu quit. She and I used to spend hours on Skype coming up with speculation and explanations and alternate ways the writers could’ve told the stories. And we did this mostly during season 3! We’d do this for Stefan, Klaus, Matt, Bonnie, Rebekah, and Klefan. But it’s not even worth it anymore. The characters have become so bad, empty, or nonsensical that at one point you just have to realize that there’s such a thing as a character or storyline being too ooc for explanations.

        It’s either that or write it in fic. The past two episodes haven’t even been worth watching for fix!it fic material.

  13. I cringed every time they said “spirit magic.” It felt like they were at once redoing the little bit of witch mythos they’ve given us while also introducing something new. “Spirit magic” is suddenly the hot button word.

    I think what I’m most tired of wrt this show is it’s loosely tied together mythology. Tired of it. They’re not building it so much as redoing it.

  14. How can Silas be “powerful” (or did he say “very powerful?”) if he was put under almost as soon as he was turned? I doubt he even spent a year as a vampire. Technically he was in suspended animation, technically, so logically, more interestingly, shouldn’t he be this 2000 year old vampire who, through circumstances, is only as strong as Caroline?

      • I guess. I talked about it with Olu and she pointed out that the vampires’ strength is tied simply to their age and not to them actually doing anything or stretching their muscles.

      • Ew. What was he playing her for? Sorry for the questions, I know I could just watch, but I’m loathe to. I’ve outlined my notes from the podcast and even though I only focus on Bonnie, I’m pretty sure I’ve written an hour’s worth of stuff. Smh.

        • Stefan and Lexi were in MF (we didn´t see that but Lexi said Stefan was back in MF) and they heard of Damon and his killing spree in NYC and Stefan feared that he would get himself killed because of how slobby he was hiding his killings and that´s why send Lexi to Damon. She wanted to keep an eye on Damon and was trying to get him to switch his humanity back on again – because at that point he had his switch off. She started her rehab with him … but not the torture one like she did with Stefan, but she was going out with him every night and trying to make him see the good part of his life I guess and after their partying ended late night, she talked to him about Katherine because she thought that with mentioning her and him talking about her, his feelings for her would bring him to switch his humanity back on. And Damon then pretended that he switched his humanity back on already and it is all because he cares for Lexi/loves her and has nothing to do with Katherine, they slept with each other and then when Lexi woke up it was at the roof top of the bar I guess and Damon had brought her there, locked all the doors (and reinforced them all night) so that she couldn´t get in and the sun was coming up and Lexi had to hide somewhere because she didn´t have a day light ring and Damon walked away with his smug face.

          And after that in the Delena scene it seemed like when Lexi came back in season 1 this brought back all this guilt and stuff in Damon and he hated it and killed her to get rid of that guilt. He made a comparison with no!humanityElena and that she would regret later when the switch is on again and it would cripple her or something.

          Sorry it is so difficult to describe this nonsense. But they were also basically retconning him killing her. Now he did it because he couldn´t live with the guilt for treating her that way and then have to see her face again.

          • Waaaaaaaaaait, so, Stefan was in MF in the 70s, yet none of the parents recognized him when he came back to town 30-35 years later? Huh.

              • He recognized him from back in the 50s, though, when some vampire was in town killing people. They never did clarify whether it was Damon or Stefan.

                • But like you I also thought about him being there in the 50s because of those old news clip Elena watched back in season 1 when she became suspicious of him and what Tikkis Grandad said.

                  So at least one Salvatore brother (or both) was in Mystic Falls in 1912, 1950s and the late 1970s.

                  They never did clarify whether it was Damon or Stefan.

                  Plot for another flashback.

          • Considering how often these people have been to MF, how is it that no one’s noticed that they keep coming back and they don’t age?

            they slept with each other and then when Lexi woke up it was at the roof top of the bar I guess and Damon had brought her there, locked all the doors (and reinforced them all night) so that she couldn´t get in and the sun was coming up and Lexi had to hide somewhere because she didn´t have a day light ring and Damon walked away with his smug face.

            Wow. Why does a vamp with its switch kill? Why is that their go-to activity? And yet they’re not being hunted en mass. Ugh.

            And after that in the Delena scene it seemed like when Lexi came back in season 1 this brought back all this guilt and stuff in Damon and he hated it and killed her to get rid of that guilt.

            What the hell? What?

            Now he did it because he couldn´t live with the guilt for treating her that way and then have to see her face again.

            No. No. Damon said why he killed her. “It’s part of the plan.” Screw him and the writers.

            • Considering how often these people have been to MF, how is it that no one’s noticed that they keep coming back and they don’t age?

              Especially with the council around, why didn´t anybody notice? And it seemed to be more competent in early season 1.

              No. No. Damon said why he killed her. “It’s part of the plan.” Screw him and the writers.

              That´s the actual dialogue of the scene in 4×17:

              Elena: So you pretended to have feelings for her just to get her off your back?

              Damon: I was willing to do whatever it took. Sound familiar?

              Elena: [smiling] Aw. I hurt your feelings.

              Damon: Not my feelings. I’m looking out for you because one day, you will flip that switch back on, and all the bad stuff that you did is gonna come rushing back, and it is going to suck.

              Elena: So you’re saying that you felt bad for Lexi?

              Damon: She became a walking, talking reminder of all the awful things I’d done. And I managed to avoid her for decades, and then she just shows up in Mystic Falls to wish my baby bro a happy birthday, and boom– rush of memories, rush of guilt.

              Elena: So you kill her?

              Damon: Out of sight, out of mind. Every day that you’re like this is the day that you might do the one thing that you can’t take back.

              • I mean wouldn’t the council know that one of the things they should look out for is people who don’t age? Elena was able to look at the register for the first Founders ball and think it weird that Stefan and Damon’s names are on it.

                Screw him. And how did pretending to have feelings get her off his back? Because he locked her on the roof? Shouldn’t that have created more problems for him once she got out? It seems to me that they came up with these feelings things because while they wanted to write Lexi in the episode, they had no idea how to believably write her in a plot with Damon that didn’t involve Stefan.

                And they really made Delena sleep together on the rooftop because that’s where Damon had slept with Lexi? Why are the Salvatores still interested in being alive after all these years if they’re just going around repeating experiences?

                At no point have I seen the bad things Damon has done rush back to make him feel guilty.

                And I just realized that with what Elena did to Damon in this episode, it’s a 90% chance now that Caroline won’t get that apology. But there’s a 100% chance that Damon will get one. I just can’t figure out if it’ll be before or after Stefan.

                • And how did pretending to have feelings get her off his back? Because he locked her on the roof? Shouldn’t that have created more problems for him once she got out?

                  Yeah I don´t get that aswell. Lexi would have been free when the day is over and if he acted like he did in NYC (being so slobby with his killings) how much time it would have taken for Lexi to locate him again? Not much but apparently he was avoiding her after that.

                  And they really made Delena sleep together on the rooftop because that’s where Damon had slept with Lexi?

                  No they didn´t, they just made out but you could see that Elena was trying to play him and then wanted to steal a sheet of paper (on which the adresses of Katherine were on – also very convenient and I just can´t see Katherine being that slobby) but (of course) Damon knew what she was planning and stopped her. Then this talk about him tricking Lexi comes in, with the dialogue I posted above and in the end she only got that sheet of paper and could leave Damon behind because Rebekah came in and snapped his neck. So it wasn´t even Elena who kicked Damon´s ass … Ian was lying.

                  And for better understanding, this Will guy he killed in the last episode was a vampire who helped other vampires to get a new identity (and he stored all the former/current adresses of those vampires in his bar and that´s why Damon went there because he thought he would find the adress of Katherine, which he did), And you also saw in those flashbacks that Damon was stealing IDs for this guy.

                  • What’s funny about Damon being sloppy with his killings in NYC in the 70s is that he didn’t fix up his sloppiness by the time he came to MF in 2009.

                    this Will guy he killed in the last episode was a vampire who helped other vampires to get a new identity

                    That’s a smart idea, actually. Especially since vamps don’t age and need to move from city to city. Problem is, every vamp we’ve met has carried the same name that they were given at birth. Smh.

    • It was just a plot point to full on the banter between Klaus and Caroline (“You have friends?” blabla. etc.).
      At first I thought he said Marcel for some reason because I thought they would bring in more references to the upcoming backdoor pilot, but then I read the transcript.

  15. I just realized that the writers destroyed the season storyline for two characters (Bonnie and Tyler) for the sake of one character and his ship (Klaus/Klaroline) who is going to leave in two episodes anyways. Or is he going to come back after that backdoor pilot?

    • That’s pretty much par for the course with them now. Not only that, but with all their retcons since S2, have they ever managed to complete ANY plot they way they originally planned? The Martins were thrown under the bus to keep Elijah alive, Caroline/Tyler, pretty much the only ship that was different and coherently written, was destroyed by their decision to keep Klaus and turn that into a triangle, the Caroline/Stefan friendship was completely forgotten in S3 when it would have been actually relevant to the plot, and I’m guessing a lot of the false starts the show has had were plots that were tossed after the setup.

      • Agreed with ALL of this. It sucks (I didn’t know that the Martins were thrown under the bus because of Elijah, though.) They’ve screwed over a LOT of characters because of their pandering to the Originals, it’s ridiculous. 😦

        BTW, to whoever was asking above, it’s been confirmed that we will see more of the Originals after the backdoor pilot. Ugh. Great.

        • I’m pretty much only planning on continuing on with the Originals at this point, but I’ll have to crack up if it tanks after all that pandering.

          • It’s really dumb, because pandering to the Originals on TVD isn’t going to help ratings for TO at all, IMO. It’s just damaged TVD, and also damaged the Originals as characters because they don’t fit on TVD and it makes them look more and more ridiculous.

            I also don’t understand why Klaus as a character is worth all this. So, so dumb.

            The only reason why I don’t want the Originals to tank is, if it does, they’ll probably bring Klaus and Rebekah back to TVD.

            That reminds me: Jeremy died, Elena and Bonnie have been friends all their lives, but Elena’s spending all her time with Rebekah. She hasn’t even had a one-on-one scene with Bonnie since…I don’t even know when. Again, pandering to the Originals.

            So, so dumb.

            • I read something earlier today that sounds like Michael Trevino has confirmed that he’s leaving for good: http://theoriginalscw.com/the-originals-the-vampire-diaries-pictures-of-you-info/, but I don’t know how reliable that site is since it’s fairly new. I’m guessing Caroline will get some sort of transition romance until they see how the new show is doing (and whether Klaroline fans still care) and then either bring back Klaus to ship with Caroline if TO tanks or send Caroline to the new show if it doesn’t and if TVD is still doing OK after the reboot.

              • I don´t think this site is reliable. It looks like wetpaint 2.0 – collecting spoilers/snippets from other sites and putting their own spin to it.

                I really hope that Candice has something better to do than continuing to play a role she will have played for six years when TVD ends (because I don´t think they will let her leave as long as TVD is running).

              • I’ve heard of this site, but I don’t know how legit it is. Anyways, their focus, I’m pretty sure, is going to be on the spinoff.

                I don’t know how Tyler’s going to leave for greener werewolf pastures unless he’s going to be in the spinoff. Which he isn’t. He’ll leave and no one will mention him again.

                Lol @ Caroline having a transition romance. Wow, this girl hasn’t been single since early season 1. Wow. For someone who isn’t required to be in a relationship for the plot of the series like Elena is, that’s kind of sad because of the whopping NOTHING that’s been going on with her character.

            • When was the last time the people who grew up together had a lengthy conversation that focused on their past and didn’t mention the Salvatores? I think the closest we’ve come to this is Matt and Bonnie reminiscing about the time they were life guards.

        • Damn it! Why?! On one hand I get it because it’s not like the back door pilot means the show automatically gets picked up. We actually have to wait until the summer to find out. But not only will Klaus leave, he’s going to come BACK and still not get killed? The second half of season 4 feels like a mess and part of it is due to them using TVD episodes to set up The Originals.

          • I’d say a LOT of the problems in the back half of the season have to do with them using TVD to set up the Originals, and also just pandering to the Originals in general (I think Plec vastly overestimates their fanbase simply because their fans are loud and dedicated. Also, the interviews say the spinoff was the network’s idea, they came to Plec. So maybe there is some pandering to the executives, too.) Elena’s mostly interacting with Rebekah in the aftermath of Jeremy’s death, instead of Bonnie. So many characters are being sacrificed to prop Klaus. Plec is endlessly fangirling over Elijah (and apparently he’s in the Prom episode???) instead of telling stories for the existing series regulars.

            This is why I hate the Originals. Hate.

            • I think Plec vastly overestimates their fanbase simply because their fans are loud and dedicated.

              THIS. So much. I think it’s the same with the popularity of Klaroline. Julie & co. haven’t really seemed to have figured out that the loudest and craziest fans on the Internet are usually the lunatic fringe and not representative of the majority of viewers. Directing your fanservice at fans like that is just a recipe for disaster. Especially shippers. If TO succeeds, most of them will have already found their new self-insert for Klaus in one of the other female characters and Caroline will already be shipped with the hottest new boy on TVD by this time next year and Klaroline will be a distant memory with the exception of the truly nutty.

              I still like the Originals for the most part, but I don’t see how it can succeed. Whenever I read an article on a non-fandomy entertainment site, the comments are full of Klaus/Originals hate. I doubt very much that there’ll be as much overlap in fans as they expect and it’s such an odd concept, I don’t see how they’ll find new viewers.

              • “Julie & co. haven’t really seemed to have figured out that the loudest and craziest fans on the Internet are usually the lunatic fringe and not representative of the majority of viewers.”

                I agree. And this baffles me because most people in fandom manage to figure this out very quickly (well, apart from the idiots in fandom.) Even though TV is just a hobby for them and not a job.

                I’m so endlessly angry and frustrated at the way the writers and producers have continually shafted the initial characters, their storylines, and even the very tone of the show because of the Originals. It’s ridiculous.

                • I think their biggest mistake was not killing Klaus. Keeping him alive has ruined so much. Or even earlier when they started all the retcons to keep Elijah alive. The show went completely off the rails in the Dinner Party ep in S2 and never got back on.

                • and even the very tone of the show because of the Originals.

                  YES! The tone of the show is completely different. Come on now, we have Caroline saying maybe they’re all just like Klaus and Klaus telling her that maybe they’re all just like him. Really?

            • I’d say a LOT of the problems in the back half of the season have to do with them using TVD to set up the Originals

              It happened in season 2 because she switched the story to make Elijah Klaus’ brother because she fell in love with Gillies and wanted to keep him. It happened in season 3 because she fell in love with Klaus + “the networks” came to her to create a show about the Originals (I call bs. The Originals weren’t together as a family until episode 14. That was more than halfway through the season. If she hadn’t been dragging her feet on killing Klaus, the network wouldn’t have had a chance to come to her). Now it’s happening in season 4 because of the spinoff.

              Why the heck is it so hard for her to write a coherent season?! One where the beginning matches what’s happening at the end?! My goodness.

      • They haven’t completed any plot that they’ve originally planned (that’s why the characters end up failing at every major goal they set. Notice how they still don’t have the cure). Except maybe the tomb vampires. I really wonder if Katherine was supposed to survive for this long.

            • Yup, that’s what I’m basing that assumption on. Plus, I heard a “spoiler” (which I haven’t been able to confirm) that a female character dies in the next few eps, so I’m guessing it’s her.

              • Where did you hear this spoiler? (I’m not doubting you! 🙂 I just want to check it out in the future, if it turns out to be a legitimate source.)

                • I seriously heard it from a friend a couple of days ago, who heard it from a friend on tumblr, but didn’t know the details of where she had it, LOL, I’ve been looking everywhere for a source, but haven’t been able to find it. The way I heard it sounded very specific, but I’m thinking it has to be a fake spoiler. It was something along the lines that a woman who means something to Klaus will die and give him reason to leave town and apparently people were guessing either Caroline or Katherine. I can’t imagine they’d kill Caroline though, but Katherine has never meant anything to Klaus except as a tool, so *shrug*.

                  • LOL! In this case it sounds like a case of a stopped clock being wrong twice a day? I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Katherine dies, but this spoiler sounds false.

                    • Me, too. I pushed for evidence, but my friend couldn’t tell me where her friend had heard it.

                  • Maybe it’ll be one of those (white) characters they introduce for one episode and expect the audience to care. Like what they just did with Damon’s little friend.

                    • That’s what I was thinking. Would these writers really kill Katherine off? When was the last time they killed a fan favourite? Anna in S1, I guess.

                    • When was the last time they killed a fan favourite? Anna in S1, I guess.

                      As much as I hate to admit it but I think Alaric was a fan favourite aswell, probably mostly because of Dalaric I guess.

                      I can´t see him killing her off aswell, I always thought one of the trio would do it if the writers would make it happen.
                      But what kind of horrible thing could he do? And I don´t think it´s one character that is only introduced for this episode … what would be special/horrifying about him killing a random?

                    • As much as I hate to admit it but I think Alaric was a fan favourite aswell, probably mostly because of Dalaric I guess.

                      Yes, Dalaric was very popular. But was Alaric really a popular character? Damon was the fan favourite in that ship. It’s kind of like Forwood – Forwood is very popular as well but does that automatically make Tyler a fan favourite?

                      I have no idea what Elijah might do. But I have no idea why he’d want to kill Katherine all out of a sudden either.

                    • But was Alaric really a popular character? Damon was the fan favourite in that ship.

                      Alaric was very popular. I was in that corner of the fandom (until Matt started to creep me out with the Elena/Alaric fanfic *shudder* and then the racefail finished him off completely for me) and still have friends in it, and a lot of people were only into the show for him and the Dalaric and pretty much stopped watching when Alaric died.

                    • Oh, okay. I didn’t know that.

                      But even if you count Alaric as a fan favourite, you can say that TVD’s quota of killing off popular characters is pretty low. (And even if they die, you can count on seeing them again, see Lexi, Anna’s brief return in S3 and Ghost!Alaric.) So this makes me as bit sceptical when it comes to the writers getting rid of Katherine. But who knows, they might suprise me.

              • Katherine dying by Elijah’s hand is so unacceptable that I’m beside myself at the thought. Elijah isn’t even on the list of people who should get to kill Katherine. I’d put Stefan on that list (considering she raped him) before I’d put Elijah.

        • I really wonder if Katherine was supposed to survive for this long.

          I don´t think so … she is one of those characters that became popular in the fandom and therefore the writers weren´t brave enough to kill them off.
          Also I believe that in one interview or something it was even mentioned that they never planned for her to have such a big role but the people liked her and then she just sticked around, but they don´t know what to do with her and they probably want to spare Nina from all this shooting for two different characters and that´s why we get plot device Katherine.

  16. Also another thing that bothered me was that when Caroline/Stefan/Klaus went through those descriptions for the expression triangle and they named the two sacrifices they had Caroline saying “Demons– Klaus’ hybrid failure” – that looks to me like JP saw on twitter or whatever social media she loves to follow what people thought of hybrids. And then Klaus says “Well, I wouldn’t exactly call it a failure.” – and I knew they only used this to have them banter or something and totally forgot/ignored that Tyler – the one true love of Caroline is also a hybrid. And way to “dehumanize” Tyler´s pack. Those aren´t twelve lives that were ended by Klaus … no those were only Klaus’ hybrid failure. No big deal then.

    • They called the Hybrids demons? Demons? What happened to “Hybrids are werewolves first,” JP?

      And way to “dehumanize” Tyler´s pack. Those aren´t twelve lives that were ended by Klaus … no those were only Klaus’ hybrid failure. No big deal then.

      Ugh.

      • I think in this case “demons” is supposed to separate supernatural creatures (vampires, werewolves, hybrids) from humans and witches for the purposes of a sacrifice? They’re the three points of the triangle, three different types of sacrifices, so “demons” doesn’t equal hybrids, just that hybrids would serve that purpose, I think. Sacrificing 12 vampires or 12 werewolves would work just as well for an Expression triangle–it makes sense to me that a human writing the book would refer to them all as “demons.”

        • Oh okay. I thought they used demons to refer to just the Hybrids. And a human wrote the book? From where did they get their information? Considering how myopic this show is it’s hard to imagine that anyone who’s not supernatural is aware enough to go so far as write a book. The closest we’ve come is Shane, and even he had a wife who was a witch.

          So three different types of sacrifices were needed: humans, demons, and witches. I feel like we should’ve known this earlier.

          • So three different types of sacrifices were needed: humans, demons, and witches

            Yup. The book said that an Expression triangle requires these three different types, one for each point of the triangle. And yes, it would have been so much better to have known this sooner. I guess they wanted the “shocker” of the last set needing to be witches in this episode.

            It wasn’t specified that a human wrote the book–actually it may have been a witch? But it was an academic text, and the bit that was read out made it sound like someone doing research into the supernatural rather than someone who was supernatural themselves (like Isobel before she turned, and her student at Duke), so that’s what gave me that impression (TBH I think Plec and Co. were cribbing from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the book looked and sounded a lot like the Watcher’s books on that show, humans who studied the supernatural. And “demons” on Buffy was used to refer to vamps/weres/non-witch supernatural creatures in general. So I think that’s where the terminology came from.)

            • Well, on Buffy, they were actual types of demons (at least the vamps were, not sure about the weres), not just called “demons.” In one of the flashback eps in S1, however, Johnathan Gilbert or Giuseppe Salvatore called the vampires “demons,” but I think it was just an expression in that case.

              • Yeah, but wouldn’t people who studied them, etc. (as opposed to people like Buffy and her friends who were close to them, friends with them, on an actual individual basis) refer to supernatural creatures as “demons”? I need to rewatch, LOL.

                Basically I was just saying (badly and inarticulately, heh) that it wasn’t a case of them specifically singling out the hybrids as “demons” in a derogatory sense, but just separating the type of supernatural creatures required for the 3rd sacrifice to complete the Expression triangle, as opposed to witches and humans.

            • I guess they wanted the “shocker” of the last set needing to be witches in this episode.

              And they let that shock register with us and Bonnie for like one second before moving on.

  17. Kathrin asked: what would be special/horrifying about him killing a random?

    Maybe Caroline will make him feel reeeeaaaaalllllyyyy bad about it. -__-.

    ellensmithee said: lot of people were only into the show for him and the Dalaric and pretty much stopped watching when Alaric died.

    Wow, that is so hard for me to imagine. People quitting because of Alaric? Then again, I think some people quit after Kol died. It might be more or less ridiculous depending on how you look at it: more ridiculous because Kol was never a regular character and he was a villain, and villains die. Less ridiculous because Kol did more in two episodes than Alaric had done in two seasons by the time he died.

    The writers are always saying no one is safe and that any character might die. They always say that to make the main actors feel skittish, but, in my opinion, Jeremy is the first time they’ve honored that mantra. I mean maybe we can say that Jenna was the first since she was in the first episode, but Jeremy is the first one in a long time.

  18. But what kind of horrible thing could he do? (Kathrin)

    Just had an idea: What if he compells Elena to turn her humanity back on?

    • That wouldn’t be horrible, it would be a godsend. 😉

      I can’t figure out why anyone would willingly turn the switch back on once it’s off anyway. It’s not like they have a conscience anymore and would miss their humanity.

      • Yeah, I agree actually. But I guess the show could spin it as Elijah making Elena experience the pain again the Salvatores ~saved her from or maybe say that it’s a horrible thing to have your emotions come flooding back to you at once (unlike Stefan in S3 and, I guess, Damon who let there emotions come back gradually – according to show logic, that is).

          • Yeah, but if they take that route I think they will also make it clear that Elijah has noble reasons for doing that. He won’t be painted as a bad guy. There’ll probably be a big Elejah moment where he once again says that he values her humanity and/or that compassion is her greatest gift and he wants to give that back to her.

        • *their

          Oh, and I could see the writers being done with switched off!Elena by the end of next episode. They don’t have long attention spans.

      • Something the writers have never thought about. And it’s not like they’re usually around other vamps who have their switch on and are enjoying life. I mean no wonder Damon was unwilling to listen to Stefan. Stefan always looked miserable and not at all like he was truly having fun. All he could talk about was his guilt.

    • Maybe the horrifying thing that he does and about what many people will be shocked about is kissing Elena. Daniel is a rabid Elejah shipper if I remember right and it would be shocking for those triangle fans.
      And I think there were rumors about Elena/Katherine (and another rumor of Elena pretending to be Katherine – when they shot episode 18) kissing someone who wore a suit and from those stills it looks like Elijah is the only one that wears one.

      • I don’t know. Would that qualify as “horrifying”? That adjective makes it sound so negative. I mean, surely even the hardcore DE/SE fans wouldn’t be too upset if a switched off Elena kissed Elijah as part of her cover as Katherine.

        • I still think ellensmithee is right and he’s going to kill Katherine. DG sounded very defensive. It might be a case of them overestimating Katherine’s importance to most of the audience. Or maybe they’re not overestimating, who knows? A couple of people were bent out of shape over Kol.

          If it’s really just about a kiss then……wow.

    • Maybe. Because isn’t he one of the many people who’ve said that Elena has a good heart or whatever? I’m sure he mentioned it in his letter when he was telling her that she’s nothing like him (cause he’s so dishonorable -__-).

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