Spoiler chat: 49.469-09:17.281
My accent is all over the place! In this episode, Klaus gets a hollow victory, and I wonder why he was afraid of Mikael in the first place. The writers once again gave Elena Token Girl Power and then made her sit out of the plan, Tyler finally vocalizes why he’s so gung-ho about being a slave; Matt shouldn’t have been in the episode; Stefan earns his freedom, and I talk about how the show handles Girl Power when it comes to Elena and Caroline, and when it comes to Bonnie.
Just Another Judicious Podcast 
Okie, so I’m changing my mind about waiting until TVD comes back to change the theme. I don’t know if I’m keeping this one. There’s another one I want to try, so I’m going to put it up for a couple of hours tomorrow (today) to see how I like it.
well it’s pretty.:D
Gracias.
I like it. If you change it, I would prefer another super girly one. I like the flowers on your tumblr blog.
Btw, I am doing a rewatch of TVD from the very beginning because I am lying in bed sick and drugged up to the gills right now + you put up that post about our least fave eps/arcs a little while ago and I was wondering if season one being better was something I made up in my head. Nope. Season one really was better. I really liked the first half of season one – the part that everyone else hated. I even loved the pilot.
Is the font larger or the writing space narrower or am I hallucinating right now?
Season one really was better.
This is so very true. It’s actually even better on rewatch considering the current state of the show.
I haven’t rewatched season 1 since before season 2 started. I should take another look at it to see if it still holds up.
I don’t think it is too soon for Bonnie to date. She needs a rebound guy to wash out the stench of Jeremy’s (somewhat understandable) skeeviness. But then, I never liked Beremy and was waiting for Bonnie to get into another relationship.
They are going to do a Belena roadtrip? Ugh! That is something else I wanted last season. I really hope they don’t make both girls look ridiculous like they did with Elena and her “Buffy” training.
Two bearable eps of season 3 – (1)Ghost World because of Bonnie/Caroline, Bonnie/Shiela, the almost reunion of Elena/Brain, the crazy Stefan/Lexi stuff, Bonnie and Elena talking through Caroline, Damon/Alaric weirdness was actually good if you pretend this ep existed in a vacuum. Dalaric are generally so gross. Alaric always looks like Damon’s minion and the writing in this ep undermined the stance Alaric took against Damon just a couple of eps ago. Despite all that, they were bearable. That was the one and only time I found their so called friendship bearable (2) I can’t really think of one other ep. I liked the Matt/Vicki parts of Smells Like Teen Spirit. I also liked the Klaus/Stefan/Rebekah/Gloria flashbacks in The End of the Affair at the time because of what I thought it would mean for Stefan’s story but nothing really came of that so wtvs. Why was Rebekah even in those flashback?
If they were hellbent on showing us every detail of the ToD’s plan, why not just tell it straight? Why do a flashback in the middle of an ep about something that happened a few mins before? OMG! I don’t understand anything. I think they were going for a thriller vibe but they took a left turn right into farce.
Lol. They didn’t show us how Matt got to this point because they don’t know yet. They haven’t figured it out but they wanted him in this ep for wtvr reason. Even if they do, it looks like they don’t.
Hold on. HOLD ON. Are you suggesting that they build on the themes of family, loyalty and betrayal they setup in Ordinary People by having Rebekah confront Klaus in some way? Madness!!
To be fair, Elena took out Elijah by herself and the Salvatores “killed” Elijah by themselves.
I think they took the dagger out of MIkael so that he would stake Klaus. It was a trap for Klaus. Klaus was never meant to see Mikael’s dead body. He was supposed to walk into the house where Mikael would have been waiting for him. The ToD needed Mikael awake because he hid the stake from them.
Elena is a better liar than the Salvatores. She is stealthy like that. Rebekah was no match for her crafty ways.
They probably boiled the wolfsbane in water for a long time and then left it in the hot water for a while longer. That is my guess. I think that is called a decoction.
They left Rebekah’s cellphone next to her like they threw in the moonstone after Katherine in the tomb.
Elena is a slightly different character every other ep
Elena doesn’t care. She has no humanity. No one in this show does. If they did, they would care about all the dead bodies.
You are so right. No one ever tells Katherine that she is acting like Elena.
I thought they did a random/pointless “Girl Power” moment with Bonnie in this ep which is not a good sign. What was that Bonnie/Damon/Tyler scene? I guess it showed that her magic is getting stronger but it wasn’t really tied to anything. I mostly agree with the rest though.
It is one thing to exclude Caroline. It is another thing to let her walk into one of their “plans” when she has no clue what is going on. I don’t think Bonnie knew before she ran into Damon either. Maybe she knew they were going to do something like this at some point but I don’t think she knew it was going to be that night.
How did “we” for Elena get narrowed down to just her and Damon? How can she say that “we” “always” survive when her aunt and bio dad died a couple of months ago?
The only thing stronger than compulsion is Stefan’s love for this one boy (Damon).
Maybe Caroline is repeating the insults people used on her in the past. She knows those words hurt because they have hurt her. Therefore, when she wants to hurt another girl, she uses them. Best guess *shrug*
I know some people are saying that it wasn’t a real breakup but how is this going to work? Tyler likes being a monster now and is happy about being controlled by someone else. Caroline has huge issues with both those things. I suppose their new dynamic could be a vehicle for Caroline to explore her issues with these things…
I don’t know what I am saying anymore. I really don’t. I usually know what I want to say but have a hard time articulating it or I have the beginnings of an idea and I think it through by rambling about it to someone. Tbh, I had no idea what I was saying in the last two comment threads. What was I even trying to get at w/r/t Tyler in the ep poll thread? I don’t know. Katherine has a choice in letting her humanity back in? WTF. I realized today that my old speculation on how vampires were created was actually very close to what the show basically did (witches making vampires to be more powerful than werewolves) but somehow I didn’t connect with what the show did. Idek anymore. I only wish they would tone down the super!!! dramatic!!! music!!! Give me a break. I don’t understand the show but I like your podcasts so wtvr. I can’t wait for podcasts of other shows.
LOL. “It is just vervain”?? That is like saying “It is just poison”. I wasn’t only thinking of Carol vervaining Caroline during that Forwood scene. I was also thinking of Brady capturing her and Damon using her. How many times has someone else taken control over this girl’s body? Tyler knows all this.
He is 162 years old so he has to have the best tie to show up all the teenagers. Stefan is so kewl
Mikael was such a waste.
Don’t remind of Gloria. AAAAHHH!!! Traumatized for life.
the writing in this ep undermined the stance Alaric took against Damon just a couple of eps ago.
I mean really, Damon just repeated what he said in his first non-apology: he basically said he didn’t mean it.
Why was Rebekah even in those flashback?
I introduce her, basically. They needed a buffer between Stefan and Klaus.
OMG! I don’t understand anything.
I’m cracking up here. Lmao.
They haven’t figured it out but they wanted him in this ep for wtvr reason.
Masquerade this episode was not.
Hold on. HOLD ON. Are you suggesting that they build on the themes of family, loyalty and betrayal they setup in Ordinary People by having Rebekah confront Klaus in some way? Madness!!
Ugh.
Klaus was never meant to see Mikael’s dead body.
Oh you’re right.
They probably boiled the wolfsbane in water for a long time and then left it in the hot water for a while longer.
True.
They left Rebekah’s cellphone next to her like they threw in the moonstone after Katherine in the tomb.
Why are they keeping Rebekah alive? Let’s be practical for a second: why not kill her? Do they really think she’s going to be understanding when she wakes up (she probably will be. She’s just a girl, after all)? Is keeping her alive part of Elena caring too much?
Elena is a slightly different character every other ep
This is kind of true, actually.
I thought they did a random/pointless “Girl Power” moment with Bonnie in this ep which is not a good sign.
You mean when she took Tyler and Damon down? That’s nothing we haven’t seen before. Especially the Damon part of it. Bonnie knew something because Damon had a brief argument about what each of them wasn’t supposed to do. Ugh. Again, I say Masquerade this episode was not.
How can she say that “we” “always” survive when her aunt and bio dad died a couple of months ago?
That’s why I said it was kind of creepy because it is literally her and Damon who always survive. Yeah, Jenna died, John, died, Isobel died, and on and on, but those two are always left standing over their corpses.
Maybe Caroline is repeating the insults people used on her in the past. She knows those words hurt because they have hurt her. Therefore, when she wants to hurt another girl, she uses them.
I highly doubt it. If other girls/people picked on Caroline, the show would totally jump at the opportunity to milk it and make her cry.
I suppose their new dynamic could be a vehicle for Caroline to explore her issues with these things…
I hope it is, because I’m finding this so interesting. I saw a discussion where some people were saying they’re glad Beremy is over because their relationship wasn’t built on love (what relationship starts out built on love), but on both of them being lonely and they weren’t really in love (which I have a problem with because we know for a fact Bonnie was in love with Jeremy. Dislike the ship, but don’t act like Bonnie’s feelings didn’t exist). Anyways, Forwood was built on both of them fearing/having a hard time with what they were. Tyler relied heavily on Caroline. And now he doesn’t need her with him when he changes anymore, because now he’ll never change. No more needing Caroline to soothe him or commiserating over how much he hates what he is. They bonded over having urges that were beyond their control. And now they’re not beyond Tyler’s control anymore. I hope they explore Caroline’s side of this. I’m positive the show doesn’t see this bonding over something they both viewed as a burden as an aspect of Forwood though.
I only wish they would tone down the super!!! dramatic!!! music!!!
Oh my goooosh. Especially since it drowns out the freaking dialogue. It’s like the music is supposed to make the situation dramatic, not the dialogue. I was watching Grimm yesterday, and it’s amazing how I rarely had to put on the subtitles.
“It is just vervain”?? That is like saying “It is just poison”.
For real.
But then, I never liked Beremy and was waiting for Bonnie to get into another relationship.
+1 I don’t hate it, it just never interested me.
I had to change the theme. It was messing up how the posts appeared (it wasn’t showing any spacing between the paragraphs in the comments).
I agree with you about the Bonnie/Jamie interaction it should be light and fun I can’t see her falling again so soon. A guy to help her get over Jeremy a rebound, and than next season maybe something serious. Not to soon to date but to soon to be serious about a guy.
I’m worryed because I don’t think both Abby and Jamie are going to make it out of Mystic Falls alive.
An Elena/Bonnie roadtrip can Caroline come because that would make it perfect. I bet Damon will shows up.
I see a lot of Bonnie fans were complaining about her not doing anything or having a s/l the first half of this season. But no one had a s/l the first half of this season it was just people doing stuff. What was Elena doing or Damon, or Stefan stuff that there was no point too they were just on screen. No one had a s/l this season so far. For the little screentime Matt had, his s/l was better. For Caroline to be a favorite and only have missed one episode so far what was her story she had none she was tortured by her dad in episode three that’s it what is going on with her nothing. The first nine episodes were about NOTHING they were individual episodes with no connection to each other for the most part.
I agree with you “Ghost World” and “Smells Like Teen Spirit” were the episodes that were most tolerable. I love Bonnie in both these episodes Bonnie/Grams in Ghost World but I actually really liked Elena in this episode and of coarse Caroline and Bonnie were great together.
Teen Spirit Matt/Vicki and I liked Damon(I’ve hated him since”The Last Day”episode) in this episode and Bonnie.
When Stefan talks about Elena’s humanity getting in the way I think he means how she handled the sacrifice. Bonnie was the best plan but because of Elena’s humanity they had to go with another plan IDK. He was the main one behind her and her plans. I’m so tired of this show saying Humanity all the time just stop already.
Rebecca I liked her scene with her dad. It was the first time I liked her since the 20’s episode were she seemed more capable. I don’t really care for her to much so I didn’t mind what Elena did I thought it was smart of Elena.
Klaus is the worse villian. Really your not going to immediately go to the Salvatore house and see his body before having a party/wake really. Everytime someone descibes Klaus I’m left wondering who they are talking about e.g. Elijah,Mikael. We’ve never seen the Klaus they talk about.
Matt the writers don’t know what to do with him. He might suffer from the “Jenna syndome” of we don’t know how to write for said person so they just kill them off. He was there to keep Zach Roerig from missing another episode. Matt just gets/does nothing.
Forwood might go to a place that I hate soon. I feel like whatever Tyler does will be blamed on Caroline. I can see it already if she hadn’t broke up with him he wouldn’t be so far gone. I hope the writers don’t do this but it’s already happening in the text. The only thing he likes about his self is her, he is sired to her not Klaus.
Damon was so over the top in that last scene. I really need Delena to happen so we can stop having these scenes. The scenes with the music and the face touching.
Stefan saved Klaus to have his freedom doesn’t make sense. Damon knows that killing Klaus would have accomplished this. So Damon should suspect something else is going on. This should not be the thing that makes him give up on Stefan if all the other stuff hasn’t.
Mikeal was a waste. I couldn’t believe they killed him just like that. This is the guy the Klaus and Rebeka were so afraid of and who Anna said would kill eveyone weak TVD just weak.
Katherine they have been retconning her since the season 2 finale. Even if I believed she loved Damon in her own way she ALWAYS loved herself more until now. Because it’s convenient for the plot.
I love the new layout looks good.
Not to soon to date but to soon to be serious about a guy.
Agreed.
I’m worryed because I don’t think both Abby and Jamie are going to make it out of Mystic Falls alive.
*Sigh.* It’s the hiatus. I’ll be on eggshells when the show comes back. But a prayer circle for Abby and Jaime has already been formed on tumblr.
An Elena/Bonnie roadtrip can Caroline come because that would make it perfect. I bet Damon will shows up.
He better not! He better be off having scenes with Ric or somebody. Though I’m sure Elena will let him know where she’s going. ‘Cause they communicate like that. *___*.
But no one had a s/l the first half of this season it was just people doing stuff.
Yeeessss. Bonnie and Matt ended the first half on the strongest note. Who should we look forward to in terms of story? Well, there are the Bonnie spoilers; there’s the speculation on how vengeful Klaus will be; and there’s where Tyler will go next. That’s pretty much it. And unless you’re a Bonnie fan or a Tyler fan, Klaus is really the only person anyone would be wondering about. Because no one else did anything. Stefan took the coffins, but what’s his next move? What is the plan?
I’m so tired of this show saying Humanity all the time just stop already.
This. Humanity might need to go before brother does.
Everytime someone descibes Klaus I’m left wondering who they are talking about e.g. Elijah,Mikael. We’ve never seen the Klaus they talk about.
Lmao. I cringe any time someone says he’s smart.
He might suffer from the “Jenna syndome” of we don’t know how to write for said person so they just kill them off.
Then they should do that and not go down the road of making him do things I don’t understand. There’s plenty to do with Matt if they’d just widen the story and stop making it so a Salvatore is involved in everything.
Forwood might go to a place that I hate soon. I feel like whatever Tyler does will be blamed on Caroline. I can see it already if she hadn’t broke up with him he wouldn’t be so far gone. I hope the writers don’t do this but it’s already happening in the text. The only thing he likes about his self is her, he is sired to her not Klaus.
Oh my gosh, I really hope you’re wrong. But another setup for the road you’re talking about is Tyler saying, “You’ve had my back this whole time, don’t turn on me now.” Ugh.
I really need Delena to happen so we can stop having these scenes. The scenes with the music and the face touching.
Yes. I wonder what will replace those scenes once they get together.
I love the new layout looks good.
Thank you.
I really need Delena to happen so we can stop having these scenes. The scenes with the music and the face touching.
Yes please. I won’t even be that upset as long as we never have to sit through them looking at each other and touching faces while angsting about nothing again.
I’m listening to this at work! Living on the edge. (Not really. No one pays attention to me here.)
Thank goodness Jamie’s connection to Abby is not the love kind.
I hope Jamie is a good character. He’s going to get a lot of hate from fandom anyway. If he was a pretty capable vampire/werewolf hunter, that would be cool.
There better be car time. At least enough car time to explain the road trip.
Oh dear! Bonnie has her mother’s last name!?!?! Maybe their family was progressive or something and he took Abby’s name. Fandom is so ridiculous sometimes.
I think Bonnie needs a rebound. So if they play her interest as something physical/playful then I’ll be cool with it. They better not make it a “relationship” situation. That would be not good.
It’s long past time we met Bonnie’s mom.
Are Jamie and Abby definitely going to be connected in that way? Because that would be pretty interesting. From a relationship perspective and from a Bonnie’s relationship with her mom perspective.
Hope you have a great Thanksgiving!
I definitely like this new layout.
The Matt/Vicki stuff could have been done a lot better and given us more about the both of them and what they lost. The first half of this season is such a hotmess.
Hopefully they do good things with Klaus.My two episodes are also Smells Like Teen Spirit/Ghost World. Honorable mention to all the potential the flashbacks The End of the Affair promised.
What’s weird about Stefan going back and making it clear that Mikael wasn’t Klaus’s father is there’s room to assume that he and Klaus discussed it at some point and yet…nothing. The writers are failures at coherent sentences.
I have no idea why the writers would want to create anticipation in Mikael’s “death” or explain Matt coming to a point of taking a vampire to Homecoming. Rebekah was there when Klaus killed Tyler. Rebekah was there! Matt saw her. Nearly everyone watched her drag Tyler’s body out of the room.
It would have made more sense for Klaus to know they were lying. I don’t know. Klaus setting up the party first makes no sense.
This show does not need to attempt anymore flashbacks. It does not need to attempt anymore flashbacks.
Rebekah doesn’t even sound relieved. Two young vampires whose combined ages barely equal a tenth of his father’s age.
Stefan only went to the wake because of Katherine, so yeah. He wasn’t a part of that plan.
Rebekah’s anger at Mikael was wonderful. They could have built on that storyline.
Did everyone forget that Rebekah has spent the past 70 or so years on ice? Why is she embarrassed? Did she never go to school? What the hell are they actually having her say here? Because she didn’t start hanging out with Klaus until post Katherine/Elijah times.
Elena treating him as someone to be bantered with has to do with the writers being unable to grasp the seriousness of this or really any story.
Why didn’t Elena notice that Stefan left the house? How did she miss the Stefan and Katherine conversion?
They should have excluded Stefan from the plan and then let it go down in a slightly different way, where Stefan wasn’t a liability because he was in the dark.
Why can’t Elena do something without being compared to Katherine? All she did was stab Rebekah and then she felt bad for it.
Maybe that’s what the fandom wants. Obvious articulation of the “girl power” idea. Because they fall all over it when Caroline and Elena do it. Which is a shame for Elena and Caroline because they don’t get to confront anything because the writers think they take care of their stories and the problems within by giving them the “Buffy”/”I’m angrier” moments.
Elena let Matt go to the dance with Katherine. She’s such a good friend. She cares too much.
If that’s why Zach Roerig is coming off so intense he needs to stop, he needs to stop like last year.
Why not have Elena go to the dance with her friends?
Um, why is Klaus so impressed? His family is clearly stupid. Elijah has been daggered by two different humans.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN ALTA? DAMON AND STEFAN HAVE BROTHER LOVE THE LOVE OF BROTHERS? THEY ARE THE SHOW’S OTP! (like the show gives any shits about anything outside of the triangle and/or hating all of the characters)
Counting on Stefan would have been dumb as hell anyway.
Remember when part of Klaus’s plan in “As I Lay Dying” was finding Katherine and torturing her? Remember that?
Are we, as viewers, even sure what Damon means to Elena?
Part of me is hoping Katherine was lying, but I actually want her to be gone for good, so I’ll take the lameness of Klaus threatening Damon.
Katherine told him to care and so he started caring…even though Klaus hasn’t told him to turn it on again. Whatever. This show is such bullshit. So much bullshit.
The old Stefan, for Katherine, is still something she created/locked into a box with compulsion. So of course she loves the old Stefan, but she’s still not an authority.
Why is it important to Katherine for Stefan to know that she loved him and Damon not to? What is the point of her loving them both? Nothing. Bullshit. Nada.
The Vampire Diaries: The Music is Getting Crazy!
But Damon has spoken before about not needing to kill people in order to get blood. Which suggests to me that he would know about those sorts of people (in addition to getting blood bags). Surely Stefan has probably attempted to find and feed on these people.
I think Caroline would have to come around to being a vampire more. Or vica versa. Who knows. They don’t let Caroline vocalize her feelings about being a vampire enough.
Like Susan said… he’s acting like vervain isn’t poison to vampires.
Of course Rebekah should be by Klaus’s side, but the writers are stupid.
Do you know how much I loved Stefan saving Klaus for himself? How much it said about his issues with being under other people’s control? How he jumped from his relationship with Katherine, to his relationship with Lexi and how that much have messed him up inside. Especially since he probably understood, deep down, how twisted it was for him to realize and come to terms with everything Katherine did to him, while being tortured by Lexi? Ugh, him choosing to be selfish in that moment, to be more than selfish, because Klaus would have died either way, in order to remain on Klaus’s good side or to have caused his freedom himself, would have been wonderful and that’s where the episode ends for me because I’m sick of Stefan’s selfishness being masked as selflessness. Gross. Hate it. He’s not a hero. Stefan isn’t even designed to be a hero. So I’m not sure what the show’s deal is.
I have to get to class, so I’ll respond to the rest of the podcast later.
I’m listening to this at work! Living on the edge. (Not really. No one pays attention to me here.)
Lmao.
Thank goodness Jamie’s connection to Abby is not the love kind.
I actually found this specification strange. Like, why would it be of the love kind if he’s supposed to be Bonnie’s love interest. Yeah, there was Damon and Isobel but the show obviously doesn’t think that’s a big deal.
I hope Jamie is a good character. He’s going to get a lot of hate from fandom anyway.
I decided to wait until he debuted to talk about this, but I think the Fandom will mostly ignore him. I was talking about this with someone else, and we agreed the Fandom will pay less attention to Bonnie/Jaime than they did Bonnie/Jeremy. They’ll just be waiting for him to die; they’ll say the producers just didn’t want to give Bonnie a main guy; that they put her with him because he’s Black, etc. I foresee a lot of condescension where Bonnie/Jaime are concerned.
Are Jamie and Abby definitely going to be connected in that way? Because that would be pretty interesting. From a relationship perspective and from a Bonnie’s relationship with her mom perspective.
No, not definite. Just a wish.
Hope you have a great Thanksgiving!
I hope you have a great one too!
I definitely like this new layout.
Gracias.
This show does not need to attempt anymore flashbacks. It does not need to attempt anymore flashbacks.
Lmao. Think they’ll have flashbacks to explain…anything about Abby? *Dies of laughter at ridiculous thought*
Did everyone forget that Rebekah has spent the past 70 or so years on ice? Why is she embarrassed? Did she never go to school? What the hell are they actually having her say here? Because she didn’t start hanging out with Klaus until post Katherine/Elijah times.
Shoot, maybe she was on ice during Katherine/Elijah. She said she never went because apparently they running every time Klaus decided to take the knife out of her.
Why didn’t Elena notice that Stefan left the house? How did she miss the Stefan and Katherine conversion?
When we don’t see the characters, they don’t exist, Olu. Or however Julie put it.
If that’s why Zach Roerig is coming off so intense he needs to stop, he needs to stop like last year.
*Dying*
Why not have Elena go to the dance with her friends?
What friends? She showed up to the 50s dance with Stefan and Damon. She showed up to the 60s dance with Stefan and Damon. Stefan wasn’t acting right for homecoming, so….
Are we, as viewers, even sure what Damon means to Elena?
No. Unless you’re a Delena fan. He brings out her fun side? Challenges her (by making her sit out of stuff)?
Why is it important to Katherine for Stefan to know that she loved him and Damon not to? What is the point of her loving them both? Nothing. Bullshit. Nada.
The point is Elena’s love life. Even though Katherine’s name was dragged through the mud by both Damon and Stefan (and Elena) for messing with both. But she’s now a reference point for Elena, to show her there’s nothing wrong with it.
Do you know how much I loved Stefan saving Klaus for himself?
It would have been so amazing! My eyes opened with interest when it happened.
Why not have Elena go to the dance with her friends?
What friends?
LOL TRUTH!
Damon would make a good dog trainer. He’s so consistent with making Elena sit. smh
Katherine told him to care and so he started caring…
Totally random, but I first read this as “Katherine told him to care and so he started crying” and was like “What?? He was crying? Again? Ugh, I’m glad that I missed this. But, wait, how could I miss this – twice? — Nooo, this doesn’t seem right.” And then I re-read your sentence. lol
“What?? He was crying? Again? Ugh, I’m glad that I missed this. But, wait, how could I miss this – twice? — Nooo, this doesn’t seem right.”
lmao! Imagine missing Stefan tears. I plan on laughing if he cries anytime soon.
Did everyone forget that Rebekah has spent the past 70 or so years on ice? Why is she embarrassed? Did she never go to school?
Was there “high school” in Viking settlements over a 1000 yrs ago? The way the dialogue was written, you would think that she regrets missing something from her human years or childhood. It sounded like it was something she always wanted to do but never got the chance to. Idk. I am not sure if I am being clear but there was something off about that scene. I mean, she is basically a time traveler, right? It is not like she was living in Mystic Falls the last few years. It is not like stayed home while all the other kids went to dances. She probably traveled all over the world and witnessed many coming-of-age rituals. North American high school dances shouldn’t be the norm for her. It would be like me being embarrassed about celebrating Christmas/Thanksgiving/ only a few times and *never* in my childhood. I did other things. Those holidays did not exist for me. I guess, my issue is that there is no context to any of this. Maybe if they had shown her wanting to experience high school in the 20s and was interrupted by Mikael, it would make some sense. Maybe if they had framed it very broadly/generally as her missing out on her adolescence and her worrying about not fitting in at MF High, it would more sense?? Idk. I am afraid I am not making any sense.
The way the dialogue was written, you would think that she regrets missing something from her human years or childhood. It sounded like it was something she always wanted to do but never got the chance to. Idk. I am not sure if I am being clear but there was something off about that scene. I mean, she is basically a time traveler, right?
I know what you mean and it bothered me too. It feels very anachronistic. Especially the line “We never had the time for it.” Poor Rebekah, couldn’t go to a highschool dance during the Middle Ages.
I wish they had her say that the Homecoming dance was like something else from her childhood. Since she didn’t get to experience that other thing, this was the next best thing. But I guess, that would require some research on the writers’ part. They might have to “Bing” some info on Viking culture. Heck, make something up. They already made up Vikings being in Virginia 1000 yrs ago.
She is OLD. Let her be old. It is like the writers are determined to undermine everything they set up. They bring in a character who is over a 1000 yrs old but they try their hardest to make her seem 14. She doesn’t even come off as an old person playing at being 14.
Poor Rebekah, couldn’t go to a highschool dance during the Middle Ages.
Lmao.
Rebekah is so old. They could reference anything with her, and this is the route they decided to take. Smh.
The way the dialogue was written, you would think that she regrets missing something from her human years or childhood. It sounded like it was something she always wanted to do but never got the chance to. Idk. I am not sure if I am being clear but there was something off about that scene. I mean, she is basically a time traveler, right? It is not like she was living in Mystic Falls the last few years. It is not like stayed home while all the other kids went to dances. She probably traveled all over the world and witnessed many coming-of-age rituals. North American high school dances shouldn’t be the norm for her.
You’re making complete sense. High-school wasn’t something Rebekah missed out on. Nor is it something she would have had a chance to do. It’s weird because the show is playing it as an intense passion, something she was deprived of, instead of acknowledging that she’s 1000 years old and it would make more sense, if she has to want to go to high-school, for her to be curious about it. Making it more about her being inquisitive about something she didn’t need instead of a desperate bid for Homecoming Queen would have been smarter.
Katherine told him to care and so he started caring…even though Klaus hasn’t told him to turn it on again. Whatever. This show is such bullshit. So much bullshit.
I was going to “rationalize” that Katherine compelled Stefan to feel, but you cannot un-compel a compelled person they can only be released. who rights this ish?
But Damon has spoken before about not needing to kill people in order to get blood. Which suggests to me that he would know about those sorts of people (in addition to getting blood bags). Surely Stefan has probably attempted to find and feed on these people.
but the problem with Stefan is that he can’t make himself stop feeding on them.
Stefan’s untold story is my absolute favorite!
I was going to “rationalize” that Katherine compelled Stefan to feel, but you cannot un-compel a compelled person they can only be released. who rights this ish?
Katherine shouldn’t be able to compel Stefan anyway. I think a vampire can give a human a new compulsion. Damon compelled those women to run away and forget what they’d seen in “The Dinner Party” overriding whatever Stefan compelled them to do in order to get them to stay. It probably depends on the compulsion. Especially since, Stefan was on human blood at the time, so his compulsion (we don’t know where Damon was getting his food) should have been stronger…so I think if you compel something new instead of uncompelling it can work. That doesn’t make much sense either. Explaining things about this show gets tiring when there’s so much in the canon that doesn’t work together.
but the problem with Stefan is that he can’t make himself stop feeding on them.
It’s like the writers think viewers are coming to each episode fresh, so we never know when they’re bullshitting. He managed to stop feeding off of April (Amber?) and yeah he proceeded to hunt her, but that was way more controlled than what the show wants to suggest about him now.
Amber.
It’s like the writers think viewers are coming to each episode fresh, so we never know when they’re bullshitting.
Yes!
Will the writers ever address the fact that Stefan’s feelings should be/are still off? Probably not.
Bonnie was great in the first scene. It’s a shame they might be done with the caves. Wait? That’s not what I meant to say. What else could they do with the caves? They don’t give a damn about the werewolves, so there can’t be much else to glean from them.
It would be interesting if the show went in that direction, explicitly, about Caroline being the person Bonnie would go to about relationship stuff.
Elena has no clue about Jeremy’s pov, she knows her own “I can turn everything into something about me” pov, so she’d say something to defend Jeremy and would then run off to defend Damon or Stefan to a unicorn or something.
It’s a great moment for Bonnie because too often other characters just let Elena live her story through their story and then feel for her because of it. Or just get dropped into the rubbish bin that contains all the potential of the show.
Didn’t Damon even bring up the fact that Rebekah couldn’t be trusted? Does Elena actually listen to people or does she insert her name whenever people talk about themselves and their relationships with others?
I feel like a lot of the cutesy dialogue on the show is due to the writers attempting to emulate Buffy and that is the dumbest thing they could do because 1) it’s Buffy 2) it gets old (real time and on rewatches) and 3) that type of cutesy pop-culture humor works for the normal people. Not for the supernaturals.
Why are we supposed to be scared of Hybrids though? Bonnie being able to mind-whammy Tyler makes sense. She is a witch. But if they’re such a threat, Damon shouldn’t be able to just rip out their hearts.
You should make fun of the people in fandom who complain about Bonnie’s powers. It should be a gif or something.
When were the daggers made. They shouldn’t factor in until later in the story. Here’s the problem…either the Originals, when they were first created, could only be killed by the oak tree or they could be killed by all trees. Since we know the oak tree was their only weakness (blah blah blah I reject the show’s canon about the sun) when the hell was it discovered that a stake to the heart would kill a vampire? I know Alonna (sp?) was there, and that explains killing the Originals, but I’m curious about later vampires and when they were created and who thought about how to kill them since I doubt they were spreading that information around themselves. Also, Elijah said that the Originals thought it was this huge betrayal for a vampire to kill another vampire, so if another vampire would attempt to kill an Original they would die as well. Which means that the witches placed that precaution on the dagger because? This is why the Originals should have been a council/hierarchy situation instead of a family because then it could be argued that the witches would place that kind of precaution on the daggers in order to create strife amongst the vampires.
I feel bad for how much Michael Trevino wants to work with Kat. But the writers won’t let him.
The writers don’t like Klaus enough to consider the fact that he would consider this. He was surrounded by vampires when Katherine got wrapped up with them, but now he’s just not doing shit?
Mikael is actually a pretty bad vampire hunting vampire. What I want to know is why he needed to learn? I only ask because vampires hunting other vampires for blood isn’t new. It’s not a new thing. So I don’t get it. Especially since his strength seems to come from being an Original so…
The problem with Mikael is the writers suggested doom much larger than Klaus’s fears by having Pearl and Anna be afraid of him. They suggested that his means of hunting effected more than just the vampire(s) being hunted. And then they didn’t go anywhere with that. Plus the idea that he’s the only one is ridiculous. There isn’t some nutjob/looking for kicks vampire out there who just does it because it can be done? That makes no sense.
I think you said the thing about Mikael eating Damon.
He bit Stefan and Stefan only passed out for two hours.
It’s especially not scary since it doesn’t seem to make him stronger.
What if they had made Mikael just this immortal canabilistic guy who hunted supernaturals and humans alike. That would have been creepy.
Here’s what’s wrong, if Mikael feeding on a vampire doesn’t kill the vampire, what the hell are the vampires afraid of? They pass out for a few hours and later on they can bounce.
It doesn’t make sense that Hybrids can be compelled considering the whole werewolves can’t be compelled. Wouldn’t it be creepy as hell if a sired vampire’s only option was too kill themselves?
A relationship that was established one episode ago and also awful.
I was with you. I was shaking my head saying, “Klaus you need to stay the hell within that threshold!”
Nope. There’s no tension on rewatch.
Pain in my heart that Stefan did it to save Damon. Ugh, even if they wanted to take it there, they should have left the reveal for a later episode.
Mikael isn’t even his father. Why didn’t Mikael just use that against Klaus?
I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to assume that Damon did miss the heart because all Klaus did was scream. There’s also the possibility that Mikael was wrong about the stake being able to kill Klaus. Which is what I thought the show would do and Klaus would laugh his little ass off.
You know that someone is going to rip out his heart and be done with it.
I wish Stefan had just run the fuck off with Katherine or was just chillin’ with Klaus. The writers aren’t interested in this storyline making sense. They’re interested in the best possible outcome for Stefan so he must lead the charge against Klaus even though he has absolutely no reason to do so. Like if the writers decided to make this a weird by product of his crazy, maybe, but they won’t and I just need Stefan to start bussing some tables with Matt or something. He needs to just sit a few episodes out.
so she’d say something to defend Jeremy and would then run off to defend Damon or Stefan to a unicorn or something.
Lmao.
I feel like if Bonnie was having serious problem with a boyfriend or even husband, Caroline is the one she’d talk to. One night stand? Caroline. No strings attached relationship? Caroline. She’d talk to Elena, but if she needed advice, Caroline is the one she’d go to. Not because Caroline is this experienced person, but because it just seems natural and makes sense.
I feel like a lot of the cutesy dialogue on the show is due to the writers attempting to emulate Buffy and that is the dumbest thing they could do because 1) it’s Buffy 2) it gets old (real time and on rewatches) and 3) that type of cutesy pop-culture humor works for the normal people. Not for the supernaturals.
Yes. Thank goodness Bonnie speaks like a normal person.
Why are we supposed to be scared of Hybrids though?
Because we’ve never heard of them before? Idk. While they built the vamps up as threatening, they never did the weres the same favor. I mean just look at how Klaus keeps turning all of them. An entire bloodline? Really? And they didn’t put up a fight? He managed to turn all of them?
This is why the Originals should have been a council/hierarchy situation instead of a family because then it could be argued that the witches would place that kind of precaution on the daggers in order to create strife amongst the vampires.
It’s also why the witch who created vamps should not have been related to the Originals. It’s also why a group of witches should’ve cursed Klaus. I feel like the witch who created vamps and the ones who cursed Klaus should not have been the same person.
When were the daggers made.
And just like that the vamps should have been older, giving witches enough time to come up with a way to kill them, enough time to think of the daggers.
He bit Stefan and Stefan only passed out for two hours.
I don’t know why this made me laugh. Stefan was out longer when Klaus broke his neck for the final time before he woke up and asked Rebekah what had been happening.
What if they had made Mikael just this immortal canabilistic guy who hunted supernaturals and humans alike. That would have been creepy.
It would have been!!!!
Here’s what’s wrong, if Mikael feeding on a vampire doesn’t kill the vampire, what the hell are the vampires afraid of?
The producers didn’t think of it. Why is Mikael so confident? He is incompetent. Where does his confidence come from?
It doesn’t make sense that Hybrids can be compelled considering the whole werewolves can’t be compelled. Wouldn’t it be creepy as hell if a sired vampire’s only option was too kill themselves?
That’s true about werewolves!!! But no surprise the writers didn’t take what they’d established about weres into account. Only “they turn when the moon is full.” *___*. That would be really creepy. Because I don’t think you should be able to unsire someone since it’s your blood in their system that does it. How do you undo that? The only option is if the vamp dies. Otherwise, kill themselves like you said.
I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to assume that Damon did miss the heart because all Klaus did was scream.
I can’t. He said they thought of everything. Apparently one of those things was not the location of the heart. I’m choosing to believe the show, rather than Damon, effed up.
You know that someone is going to rip out his heart and be done with it.
I will look at this season with so much disdain. So much!
They’re interested in the best possible outcome for Stefan so he must lead the charge against Klaus even though he has absolutely no reason to do so.
It’s going to kill me dead when everyone (Bonnie) starts following his lead.
I feel like if Bonnie was having serious problem with a boyfriend or even husband, Caroline is the one she’d talk to. One night stand? Caroline. No strings attached relationship? Caroline. She’d talk to Elena, but if she needed advice, Caroline is the one she’d go to. Not because Caroline is this experienced person, but because it just seems natural and makes sense.
I agree. Caroline is Bonnie’s confidante. She doesn’t, as far as I can remember, give away or use Bonnie’s secrets.
I feel like the witch who created vamps and the ones who cursed Klaus should not have been the same person. And just like that the vamps should have been older, giving witches enough time to come up with a way to kill them, enough time to think of the daggers.
It makes no sense for the witch to be the same person. Or for the daggers to have come about around the same period. Time should be a factor. All of this knowledge should not have come about at once. Like the Originals being effected by the sun doesn’t work towards making them so powerful when, presumably, a witch would be capable of removing the magic behind the ring.
It’s going to kill me dead when everyone (Bonnie) starts following his lead.
If someone doesn’t bring up the fact that he’s a serial killer or that he’s putting them all in danger or anything of that variety…I will scream. Because Stefan isn’t a leader. Stefan isn’t even a follower. He’s bad with people and awful at taking orders. Occasionally he knows how to lend a hand, but that’s all he has. At most. So everyone following his lead won’t make sense. Especially after spending two episodes talking about how the ToD are awful planners.
Time should be a factor.
Yes it should be! That was a problem with the 20s flashback (the flashbacks took place over the course of more than one night, but that was not obvious to me), and it’s even worse in Ordinary People. That episode was an information dump, no matter that people would have needed time to figure things out.
I feel like a lot of the cutesy dialogue on the show is due to the writers attempting to emulate Buffy and that is the dumbest thing they could do because
I keep reading this all over the place but I don’t get it. I haven’t watched Buffy in years and I will admit to missing a few eps but how is TVD like Buffy (other than the whole vampires thing)? How are the writers emulating it? I would think that if this show was anything like Buffy, Bonnie or (season 3) Caroline would be the lead. Is it the whole Angle/Buffy/Spike thing? I completely missed the online fandom experience of that show. I don’t know what kind of conversations/analysis was happening around the show.
I don’t think the shows have that much in common, but TVD is very aware of living in BTVS’s shadow and tries hard to match the idea of it which is why they constantly reference Buffy as an idea, but when the vampires are removed the similarities are over.
and tries hard to match the idea of it
What idea? The idea that BTVS was groundbreaking television??? Are they trying to be as influential as that show?
One of the many theories I once had was that this show is like watching things from the perspective of Angel/Darla/Drusilla/Spike if they had souls and there was no Buffy. (in this scenario, Damon was Drusilla and there was no Spike :P)
Well, I think they want to be at the very least as entertaining, with pop culture humor. Elena is the center of the show and she’s strong and there’s a reason for people to come in and try and kill her. The problem comes in because Elena is not the hero of the story. The main theme of the show is not a hero’s story. Except for Bonnie who is thwarted narratively at every turn.
I don’t think Damon, Stefan, Elena,etc are comparable to Angel and Spike at least not outside of the idea of them as vampires with ideas about redemption. But the shows aren’t, despite TVD’s desire to be seen as the vampire show related really and part of the has to do with how bad TVD is. Am I making sense? I’m typing this out on my phon so I might not be explaining myself well.
I don’t think Damon, Stefan, Elena,etc are comparable to Angel and Spike at least not outside of the idea of them as vampires with ideas about redemption.
Yeah, I mostly agree. I was discussing this with someone a while back (last year??) because it seemed to us that EVERYONE was going on about Buffy when discussing TVD and we were like, this is closest this show comes to having *any* similarity with Buffy. If you squint your eyes and look at it side ways, you can maybe maybe see it as Buffy without Buffy
But the shows aren’t, despite TVD’s desire to be seen as the vampire show related really and part of the has to do with how bad TVD is. Am I making sense?
Well, it is hard to compare TVD to any show because it is so bad. Lol. I think it did have the potential to be the next Buffy in the sense of being a truly influential (fantasy) YA show but it is just so BAD now. It is so bad that it is hard to comprehend how this makes it to air week after week. I barely know anything about Twilight but surely the plot of those books/movies are, at the very least, coherent. It has been so long since Buffy but now show has replaced it. Are ever going to get, at minimum, the tv version of something like Harry Potter?
Lol. I was supposed to go leave about 10 mins ago but, instead, I am wasting time here. TVD is my time waster of choice.
Wouldn’t Stefan work better as Drusilla?
Because of the torture/mind control he went through? I was thinking more in terms of how Stefan has kind of a dual personality at the time. Caroline even said that his astrological sign is Gemini in the pilot (not that I believe in astrology but I thought that maybe this was mentioned because it is significant to who Stefan is).
Also, I think Damon’s type of crazy is closer to Drusilla’s (again, I haven’t watched in ages so I am probably way off). His mind seems more disordered.
I suppose, Stefan is like Drusilla in the sense that they were both dutiful/respectable members of their societies and were corrupted by an outsider. I guess, if we look at how they started out, Stefan would be more like Drusilla and Damon would be more like Angel.
Hey, you never said why you think Stefan is Drusilla. If he is Drusilla, are the doppelgangers Angel/Angelus?
It’s the childish/cutesy dialogue. That’s the only place where I notice it. Do you remember how Willow spoke? They sometimes put dialogue like that into TVD. Right now the only person I can remember doing it is Damon. There was also Klaus/Alaric with that stupid, “Well, not Klaus me but me me. You know what I mean.” *____*
ANOTHER ROAD TRIP?
why do people go n road trips with Elena?
I hope that Bonnie gets laid, but only if the chemistry is good. I feel like it will be. *hope*
Who doesn’t have chemistry with Kat?
I think Abby is the supernatural too. The woman/witch keep the names just like the Halliwell’s.
I think Bonnie will have a fling with this guy and it will be physical. I think now Bonnie is a little jaded. mos def.
I think Golden Brooks would have been better as a cast than Persia. I was hoping it would be Jill Marie Jones, but dems the breaks.
=o no internet! =o that sucks go over Jennifer’s.
uh-oh donations needed!
Homecoming:
yes it was a mess. are the season getting worse?
“January 5th take your time!”
Stefan had life changing things too. He was being compelled every other episode.
That line is confusing me. THANK YOU ABOUT THE WORD DAGGERED! UGH! I know that if you use a dagger to stab someone is called being “daggered” but who says that?
I just sigh at the Matt dating Rebeka thing. sigh and roll my eyes.
He should have had the party at the Salvatore mansion. They could have had a bond fire wound Mikle’s corps.
You should see my face right now. This show.
Klaus should know why Rebeca wants to kill him. He put her on time out all the time.
Rebeca:
Yes. the slavatores and elena ruin another plot, by being in the episode.
I was going to ask shouldn’t Rebeca be invited into the house since she’s tyler’s new friend or at least the sister of his new friend?
Plus Rebeca was on ice for 90 years! Rebeca should be tired and jaded.
Elena is vampire kriptonite.
the originals are being taken out left and right by this little ragtag group. >_>
Elena is always over there and then she’s over there now saying Go Awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! Elena is being compelled. In my mind she totally is all the time.
Elena let her humanity get in the way? what humanity? 😀
Elena does not care. nope. soulless
Yup only cares to much about stefan and Damon. she is stunted.
Katherine and Elena ares so binary. They compare Elena to Katherine in a way where they can control her.
Katherine drivers her narrative too.
it’s Girl Power (TM)
Didn’t the strong female character moment for Bonnie happened when she was fighting Alaric!Klaus. she was bad ass then but it was her as being a bad ass friend or something.
That even happened in Aliens when Vasquez sacrificed herself and Ripley got to be bad ass and got that badass line: get away from her you bitch.
Also if they did give Bonnie scenes like that who would they compare her too? are there women of color to reference? I mean are there women of color to reference who are on the level of Ripley and Buffy and Xena, etc.? not in popular culture.
Damn it’s a theme where Caroline is being left out. at least it’s continuity.
YES ALTA IT IS UNBELIEVABLE FOR Elena TO BE ALONE AT A DANCE AND IN HER LIFE!
Damon should be used to his plans falling through.
If Stefan foiled Bonnie killing Klaus a second time I think she’d turn on him. I would love to see that. I would love to watch the Bonnie Bennett show.
I don’t get the scenes where Delena are together in each others arms. I don’t get it. every time. what the hell is this show. did they write it all in a month?
who cares about Damon other than Elena, Stefan and fangirls?
You said that Katherine should be grossed out by being a ripper.
WHO IS STEFAN?
Maybe Katherine is just saying she loved Damon so Stefan won’t think she’s that bad. It’s part of her ploy. Katherine is still playing games.
When Katherine dies Stefan will tell Damon she loved him and he will be even more woobie or something.
I wish Katherine and Stefan’s scene ended with the phone call. their scene was too long.
Tyler/Caroline:
LOL THAT VAN! LMAO.
Tyler killed that girl .. 😦
The producers said they can’t focus on how death effects human.
Blood Slut … Caroline stay slut-shaming. irony.
Bonnie and Caroline should have a talk about how vampire threats don’t work on her and are not a good tactic to get the things that you want. Also I bet that Caroline only “threatened” Elena. :X
Rebeca compelled people … end of story.
So remember when Olu said this show should have a book that would be referenced throughout the series? They do have a book … or books but only Bonnie can read it/then and the show doesn’t care about Bonnie.
Forwood is not long for this world.
Stefan/Caroline? oooh Alta! 😉
I told you Tyler died for me when Klaus killed him. Ded ded ded
His mother did it and then before that she was kidnapped by werewolves.
“It’s just roofies” >_>
“Is this a bad time to mention.” OMG …
Caroline has really bad history with dudes. She is always abused in every last one of them. Every last one.
Tyler does bring the drama into the relationship.
I feel like Jeremy/Bonnie is over (for now), but that forwood will come back.
Stefan:
I thought he was 163 for some reason.
Klaus should have gotten a Jazz band instead of MMJ. why would he like MMJ? get a better band.
But if Klaus died wouldn’t the compulsion have died too?
Who said Stefan was a hero?
Before he was compelled? when was that? he seems to have always been compelled. Always.
Bonnie:
I think Bonnie was pulling one of Caroline’s numbers. She was using the glyphs as a way to hide from being social. which is the opposite of what caroline does but she still distracts.
I love that Bonnie told Elena she couldn’t talk to her about Jeremy.
Bonnie was like whoa! and cut it short.
they want the vampires to take care of all the problems. Not Bonnie with her blackness.
omg is this the Tyler/Bonnie scene Trevino was talking about? This show.
Klaus is not smart, Alta.
Michael/Klaus
:yawn:
All I can do I roll my eyes
I’m going to have to get back to you on these questions.
why do people go n road trips with Elena?
Because she is the Big Damn Hero! Lol Just kidding. They are there as guides for her journey of self-discovery. Get it? It is literally a journey as well. Lol. Who even knows anymore? I wonder if Damon will crash this trip too. The other times Elena went on a trip – road trip to Bree’s bar, going to Slater’s apt with Rose and the forest trip with Alaric – Damon has either forced her into it or interfered. Hmmm. I just realized that things, w/r/t to this particular aspect of Delena, have gone from really crazy to less crazy (unlike everything else about them). Kidnapping -> the trip was her decision but he forced her into abandoning her plans by threatening physical violence -> threats and some physical violence but ultimately he went along with her plan. So they started out with *his* plans but ended up with *her* plans (only on the trips).
The producers said they can’t focus on how death effects human.
Really? Lol. I stopped reading their interviews. What reason did they give?
Stefan/Caroline? oooh Alta! 😉
I used to ship this SO HARD 😛
I thought he was 163 for some reason.
He will be soon. He should have a bday coming soon. He had a birthday in season one, which I assume, made him 162 exactly – 2009-1864+17=162. The start of another school year this season tells us that more than 1 yr has passed between the pilot and now. It is still 2010 in the show’s universe.
Who said Stefan was a hero?
Many fangirls. Right after the ep where Stefan ripped two girls apart, some fans told me that I was heartless for not appreciating Stefan’s sacrifice. Lol. I don’t understand why the show doesn’t stop whitewashing this stuff and make these characters full on Villain Protagonists. Ah, but that would involve framing what they do as “bad” and showing some of the damage they do. We can’t have that.
Because she is the Big Damn Hero! Lol Just kidding.
I LAUGHED OUT LOUD!
Really? Lol. I stopped reading their interviews. What reason did they give?
for pacing *snort* This is why people don’t have real reactions to things that
Damon doeshappen on this show.I used to ship this SO HARD 😛
it’s the only relationship i can find where Caroline hasn’t been physically/verbally assaulted. … Though he did tell her that Damon would kill her if she didn’t act right … >_>
Many fangirls. Right after the ep where Stefan ripped two girls apart, some fans told me that I was heartless for not appreciating Stefan’s sacrifice. Lol.
HUH?
I don’t understand why the show doesn’t stop whitewashing this stuff and make these characters full on Villain Protagonists. Ah, but that would involve framing what they do as “bad” and showing some of the damage they do. We can’t have that.
yup like they said: Pacing this is why Elena can’t be mad about Damon killing Jeremy in front of her.
Thanks Susan. ;D
HUH?
He ~sacrificed~ himself (by sacrificing other people) to save his (approx) 168 yr old brother. He was “forced” to abandon his morals, Cana. HDU! Feel sorry for him! Fell pity! 😛
He was “forced” to abandon his morals,
What morals?
What morals?
Exactly.
In season two, I was totally into defending Stefan because, if Elena absolutely *had* to be with a Salvatore, I preferred Stelena but now…
Yup. I love Stefan, but he is almost entirely without morals and the show trying to pretend he has any is actually ridiculous.
I was totally into defending Stefan because, if Elena absolutely *had* to be with a Salvatore, I preferred Stelena but now…
I know! Pretty sure that’s what they wanted, for viewers to think of it as an either or situation where Stefan was the “better” option so we would stop focusing on all the ways in which he’s not a good choice at all.
Pretty sure that’s what they wanted, for viewers to think of it as an either or situation where Stefan was the “better” option
The whole ToD thing is very scary from Elena’s POV. The Salvatores can be free of her but she can never be free of them. Stefan can go on an extended murderous road trip and Damon can hookup with Rose/Andie/random chick but every time Elena tries to leave, Damon is right there to *physically* punish her for it or Stefan is there to tell her how to react (eg. when she went to see Katherine in the tomb).
I simply accepted that this was the format of the show. Elena is always going to be with a Salvatore and it is going to be messed up as hell so I wanted the less messed up option. A while back, near the beginning of season two, I was talking to someone who was writing a TVD spec script to apply for some fellowship program or something. I forgot the details. She explained but since I have no interest in the industry or live anywhere near LA, I wasn’t too interested. Anyway, she wanted the opinion of an average TVD watcher/fan. She basically wanted me to tell her if any parts didn’t feel right.
It was a weird/surreal experience. She actually wrote Elena and Bonnie as individuals with real inner lives (the script mainly focused on ToD, Katherine, Bonnie and Emily). She also used real historical events and referenced Damon’s time in the Civil War. As time went on, my feedback boiled down to four things (1) Make the characters lamer. (Seriously. She gave Bonnie an actual interest outside magic and she focused a lot on Elena/Katherine, Bonnie/Emily and Elena/Bonnie vs. Katherine/Emily. Would you believe that she had an Elena hiking trip like the show had earlier this season but hers had Elena/Bonnie instead of Elena/Alaric and it was more about Belena reconnecting as friends than achieving a specific goal? According to her script, Bonnie’s mom showing up – except she would just be some shadowy figure and the audience wouldn’t know yet – would have been the season 3 premier’s mini-cliffhanger. It was all MADNESS!!) (2) There has to be a Delena “moment” and a corresponding Stelena “moment” (3) Real history is not allowed (She wrote about an actual battle that happened near where the Salvatores lived during the Civil War. It was a re-enactment so it only referenced Damon’s time as a confederate soldier indirectly but still. Can you imagine the show giving actual thought to Damon’s time in war and what that means? I mean, he was a *confederate* soldier and it turns out that he didn’t leave because of principle. WTF?!) (4) There has to be a Mcguffin which she did have. It was the necklace (kinda funny now that the show is using the same Mcguffin for something else). I gave this advice, not because I thought it made her story better, but because from what she told me, the script had to feel like an actual ep of the show even while showcasing her distinct style (which it did because the whole thing was very dream like. It was somewhere between that dream ep from Buffy – the one with eleventy references to cheese – and that puppet ep from Angel in the scale of weird.) Discussing this stuff as the show entered the second half of season two just drove home to me how much potential this show has and how badly it squanders it regularly.
I am sure you won’t be surprised but she abandoned TVD and did her spec script on a different show. It wasn’t because of anything I said – she got feedback from several people. It was because the show’s lameness got to her. She didn’t understand it.
The Salvatores can be free of her but she can never be free of them.
So disturbing.
Your friend’s episode sounded so good!!!
All of the above was a really long winded way of saying that yes, I totally took the boxes the show puts the characters in for granted and based my opinions on that.
Yup. I love Stefan, but he is almost entirely without morals and the show trying to pretend he has any is actually ridiculous.
This reminds me of a fanfic I read a couple of days ago. It had this sentence about Stefan being able to justify anything to himself if he thinks about it long enough. Which is so true. That’s Stefan.
Stefan being able to justify anything to himself if he thinks about it long enough.
While I agree with that idea, idk if it is limited to Stefan. What character in the show genuinely gives a damn about anything? They took that away from Bonnie and showed Bonnie/Caroline acting all carefree after their classmates were murdered. I just finished watching the season 2 ep that came after the one where Tyler killed that girl. Caroline was shown having a reaction to seeing the dead girl’s locker shrine (or wtvr that mini-memorial is called). It was small but it was something. Aren’t they all justifying a lot to themselves at this point? I was able to tolerate the Salvatores (season one and early season two) when I thought there was at least one character (Bonnie) who gave a damn.
The producers said they can’t focus on how death effects human.
O____o
Really? This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They kill people off so deaths matter, I mean they use death to up the drama and the producers want to talk about how they can’t focus on a narrative tool they use to effect the characters effects the characters? I can’t even.
I think now Bonnie is a little jaded. mos def.
I hope she is. She should be. This wasn’t regular cheating. This was cheating with a girl who’d been dead for a year! That has to be a knock to the ego. Especially because Jer seemed so dedicated to her (Bonnie) before. I’m scared the producers won’t play it like that though: that they’ll downplay how much Jeremy cared about Bonnie before Anna came back. I’m afraid they’ll just do the, “I didn’t mean to hurt you” routine.
Stefan had life changing things too. He was being compelled every other episode.
Unfortunately, it didn’t change his life. He didn’t say a word about it. It was apparently more important to hear other people talk about how to save him.
Yes. the slavatores and elena ruin another plot, by being in the episode.
Lol.
If Stefan foiled Bonnie killing Klaus a second time I think she’d turn on him. I would love to see that. I would love to watch the Bonnie Bennett show.
Oh you know I’ve thought about it. Stefan foils Bonnie (whether for himself or for Damon), but immediately turns on him and uncaps some water bottles in the nearby area and throws some on him and sets him on fire; Damon screams no from his position on the floor; Katherine blindsides Bonnie and bites into her neck, breaking her concentration; Bonnie uses her power and reflexively throws Katherine away from her; Klaus takes Stefan and speeds out; Bonnie’s touching the wound on her neck and looks at the blood seeping out. She’s pissed and notices that both Klaus and Stefan are gone. Katherine stands up, but Bonnie uses her power to keep her rooted (like the witches did to Damon in 2.17). Murder in her voice, she tells Katherine she’s dead. Using her power, she makes Katherine kneel. She uncaps some water bottles and, stealing from TSC, she pours them on the ground and as she pours, water trickles down Katherine’s face and hair and clothes. All of this time, she’s keeping Damon rooted so that he can’t interfere. She sets Katherine on fire and starts the spell that will kill her. Damon watches, a little horrified, and Katherine does not scream until near the end.
Then Bonnie, Caroline, Matt, and Tyler leave so that Caroline can patch Bonnie up, and Damon does his yelling scene with Elena, talking about how Stefan ruined everything because now Bonnie sees Klaus and Stefan as enemies. The end.
The producers said they can’t focus on how death effects human.
Did they really say this?
I feel like Jeremy/Bonnie is over (for now), but that forwood will come back.
Of course Forwood will come back. Unlike Bonnie/Jeremy, Forwood is “Epic” by the writers’ standards.
I thought he was 163 for some reason.
Since seasons 1 and 2 took place in the year Stefan turned 162, he should be turning 163 soon.
But if Klaus died wouldn’t the compulsion have died too?
Who said Stefan was a hero?
Before he was compelled? when was that? he seems to have always been compelled. Always.
Yeah.
Some of Stefan’s fans/stans, Damon, the show, the producers.
He wasn’t compelled up to Smells Like Teen Spirit.
they want the vampires to take care of all the problems. Not Bonnie with her blackness.
*Sigh*
omg is this the Tyler/Bonnie scene Trevino was talking about? This show.
He talked about a Tyler/Bonnie scene? How long ago was this? Kat released that Twitter pic of her and Joseph Morgan which might mean a Bonnie/Klaus scene. They seem to be in the woods, and we know from the trailer that Tyler and Jeremy will be in the woods at some point.
He wasn’t compelled up to Smells Like Teen Spirit.
According to recon!Lexi/, Stefan has been getting perpetually compelled through out his vampire existence.
Did they really say this?
I’m paraphrasing. I think I remember JP saying that we shouldn’t take death seriously on this show or maybe that was grief. or maybe that was what I took from it.
You think Tyler and Jeremy will be talking about the girls they were dating?
He talked about a Tyler/Bonnie scene?
Michael tweeted about having a scene with a vampire and a witch … I feel that Bonnie and Tyler will never talk to each other in a significant way. *shrugs* I give up anyway.; 😉
I liked your story. 😉
According to recon!Lexi/, Stefan has been getting perpetually compelled through out his vampire existence.
When did she say this and who was meant to be compelling him? Because Lexi wasn’t compelling him and Klaus only compelled him to forget.
I figured if Lexi knew about that hunger compulsion trick because she used it on him before.
Also Katherine compelled him before he was turned. I wish they could show his issues with compulsion.
Katherine did compel him before he was turned. I thought you were talking about his post-human days though I guess it doesn’t matter when it comes to his issues with compulsion.
I believe that hunger trick was a ghost trick because the show didn’t make a point of focusing on their eyes (unless compulsion occurs off-screen, the writers always make a point of showing it clearly, on-screen). Plus she spent decades working with Stefan on rehab (he said it took 30 years for him to get over his ripper!20s stint, right) if she could have fast forwarded the process with compulsion, she would have. Plus they’ve yet to show a vampire who wasn’t an Original (a male Original at that) compel another vampire, so one would think they’d make a point of it.
Anyway, we’ve never seen compulsion trick the body so to speak, we saw the results of her saying let’s fast forward two years. His skin went all funny and that is something we’ve yet to see compulsion do. So I’m assuming that’s ghost business. Nonsensical ghost business since the writers haven’t given anyone those sorts of abilities and for Lexi to have them would be poor storytelling.
I wish they could show his issues with compulsion.
Me too! I think they still want to pose Katherine/Stefan as a love story or as love the same way they want to pose Elena’s relationships with the Salvatores as this be all end all situations. Mostly because they don’t have Stefan talk about his issues with compulsion or articulate that Katherine compelling him (and ruining his life in the process) is his issue with her. Instead it’s because she’s bad person, which coming from Stefan is incredibly ridiculous. And the show boils it down to her being manipulative when she was robbing him of consent in almost any of the choices he made while still human.
Sometimes they hint at it (his reaction to Elena wanting to compel Jeremy, I thought could be read as negative/unsure, in addition to his relative shakiness with it at the time) or show it without really dealing with it (his reaction to Klaus compelling him being so intense while it was going on, but flippant after the fact).
Nonsensical ghost business since the writers haven’t given anyone those sorts of abilities and for Lexi to have them would be poor storytelling.
Oh, but I do think she has them. And it is nonsensical. Stefan wasn’t surprised at what she was doing (according to my memory), and Lexi sounded like she’d done this to him before. And of course Elena didn’t ask questions. I was so irritated watching the scene. It is different from compulsion, but it is some type of ability the producers gave Lexi just for this episode.
There was also his reaction in Memory Lane. But in that scene he said Katherine destroyed him and Damon. He made it a group thing instead of focusing on himself.
Oh, but I do think she has them. And it is nonsensical.
The ability to trick Stefan’s body into thinking it’s starving? Possibly. If they made her the leader of a cult, to offer some explanation for her choosing him, then it could have been interesting (ridiculous but interesting), but like you said it was a one episode deal. It’s weird because for her to have that type of ability because where would it come from? I can’t remember whether Stefan was surprised or not (he seemed less surprised than angry), but Lexi did mention not having enough time to do it as she usually would which suggested to me that what she’d done before was actually starve him for years, or however many years she mentioned in the episode. I’m not sure. It’s confusing because there were no questions or answers about what she was doing beyond “fixing” him.
What do you think it would be called, since it’s not compulsion and it seems more physical than mental/psychological?
I wonder how Stefan feels about Damon not being compelled and knowing that he was, but doing nothing about it. He’s spent a long time making it, in his head, this thing that happened to them, instead of just himself.
What do you think it would be called, since it’s not compulsion and it seems more physical than mental/psychological?
As you know, I would rather it just not exist, but…let’s see, it seemed to be a mix of illusion and hallucination. It is mental in the sense that Stefan really believed he was going through the starvation. Some kind of biological manipulation? Just, you know, with a name appropriate to TVD. I really did look this up:
Biological manipulation-Ability to control all aspects of a living creature’s biological make-up. This includes, but is not limited to, genetic alterations, physical distortion/augmentations, healing, disease, and biological functions.
I wonder how Stefan feels about Damon not being compelled and knowing that he was, but doing nothing about it. He’s spent a long time making it, in his head, this thing that happened to them, instead of just himself.
Another interesting angle the show could’ve explored!!!! How does Stefan feel about the fact that his brother let him get compelled and abused? He hates Katherine, but how does he feel about Damon’s part in what happened to him? Is this one of those things he spent years unpacking? Ugh, but it’s more interesting to have them call each other brother *___*.
I think I remember JP saying that we shouldn’t take death seriously on this show or maybe that was grief. or maybe that was what I took from it.
I think I remember that. I rolled my eyes. Just what are we supposed to take seriously on this show? If we can’t take death seriously, then why should I care that Elena was crying at John and Jenna’s funeral? Why should I feel for Alaric’s anger at Damon killing him?
You think Tyler and Jeremy will be talking about the girls they were dating?
I hope they do, though it shouldn’t be a deep conversation. They’re not close, so they shouldn’t just open up. Jeremy should feel more comfortable talking to Matt since they’ve talked about Bonnie (a little) at least once, and Matt is Bonnie’s friend. And Tyler shouldn’t open up to Jer because he’s not that kind of person and Caroline was really his only friend (yeah Matt, but whatever).
I just hope they don’t do that boy griping thing or try to make lite what they did to Caroline and Bonnie. Also if they get a scene I hope Caroline and Bonnie get one too. And I hope that Elena walks in and the other too get quiet when she asks what they’re talking about.
Well Tyler didn’t do anything to Caroline in terms of why they broke up. I doubt he’ll be talking about vervaining her. I’m sure that’ll be water under the bridge by the time we get back. Caroline got mad, but it wasn’t in context of her past (and their past). I definitely see Tyler playing the breakup off though. He already started in the scene when he got up and left as if it didn’t bother him that much that Caroline was hesitating, even though it clearly does.
No, I don’t think it’s too soon for Bonnie to have a new love interest. (Just wondering, are they saying the same about Alaric? That it’s too soon for him?)
I agree I want it to be light too.
I’d say all of the characters had life-changing things happen to them over the course of these 9 eps. The writers just didn’t care about that.
Yes, the Matt/Vicki stuff could have been done much better. And I’m very unhappy that Vicki was already gone before the great finale of the ghost SL, so to speak, took place in “Ghost World”.
Top 2 episodes – I agree on Smells Like Teen Spirit. Ghost World was the ep when I had my TVD meltdown, so I feel like I can’t pick that ep. Hmmm… What to choose, what to choose. I liked the flashback scenes in The End of the Affair but hated the gratuitous Caroline torture, so I can’t pick that episode either. I don’t know. I give up. No idea.
Like Tavi wrote, they didn’t want Matt to miss another episode, so they had to insert him into the plot somehow. And I guess they were going for a callback to Masquerade. They had Matt say, “This is so weird, us being here together”, indirectly referring to Masquerade when he was compelled by Katherine. I guess they wanted an “Oh, look, how the times have changed/who would have thought this would happen at the time Masquerade aired” type of feel when you rewatch the episode and know that it’s Katherine he’s talking to. Because this show is madly in love with anything loosely resembling a parallel or some kind of callback.
Plus, I guess, Matt is about to re-enter Caroline’s/Forwood’s SL. When Caroline saw Matt and Elena arrive, she did seem kind of jealous? You know, when she said “What happened to your date?” in that angry voice. And then they had Tyler get Matt to take Caroline home. So, I suppose Matt and Caroline will re-connect over “OMG, there’s something severely wrong with Tyler.” I don’t think they will get together again, but yeah, I think they will somehow re-connect. Especially since the writers don’t seem to know what else to do with Matt.
Katherine loving Damon is just … ugh. To say that it’s irritating is an understatement. 1) The fact that the writers think that we will buy into it, despite having been shown the complete opposite for 2 seasons, is so insulting. They don’t think too highly of us. 2) Like you said, it destroys such a great part of who Katherine and Damon are. – Anyway, I refuse to accept that as truth. In my mind, Katherine is just messing with Elena (in the finale) and Stefan (in this ep) when she makes statements like that.
I guess, the writers can’t have statements like “This was very Elena of you, Katherine” because, in their mind, that could undermine the Salvatore brothers’ super special love for Elena and Elena being a super special person. According to the show, the Salvatores were initially attracted to Elena because she resembles Katherine. So what if Katherine actually reminded them of Elena? Could that mean that they could fall for Katherine again? I think the writers want to avoid such questions and that’s one of the reasons why they can’t have such remarks.
Yeah, why did they have Damon trying to kill Tyler? I know the writers have been pushing impulsiveness as one of Damon’s defining traits since – Idk – late S1 and this got progressively worse in S2. But now? It’s like Damon has zero impulse control. Zero!!! Ridiculous. Like you guys say, apparently the writers hate all their characters.
It’s so absurd that Mikael would hand over the white oak stake to Damon. No.
Even if Stefan was on vervain, Klaus could simply lock him up for a few days until the vervain was out of his system and then compel him.
Btw, why was Klaus ok with Stefan simply leaving after he de-compelled him? What happened to the deal they made in AILD? Why is it suddenly null and void? I don’t get it.
I really like the new layout.
(Just wondering, are they saying the same about Alaric? That it’s too soon for him?)
Ha! Of course not
I’d say all of the characters had life-changing things happen to them over the course of these 9 eps. The writers just didn’t care about that.
This could be said of most of season 2 as well.
Ghost World was the ep when I had my TVD meltdown, so I feel like I can’t pick that ep.
Because of the Jeremy/Anna madness?
Katherine loving Damon is just … ugh. To say that it’s irritating is an understatement.
In my opinion, *both* Elena’s and Katherine’s love for Damon is bullshit. *Not* being loved by the object of his obsession was such a big part of who Damon was. Now his insanity is even harder to take
So what if Katherine actually reminded them of Elena? Could that mean that they could fall for Katherine again? I think the writers want to avoid such questions and that’s one of the reasons why they can’t have such remarks.
Lol at these people. Why did they even introduce the concept of doppelgangers then? Also, such questions of identity are what got me interested in the show in the very beginning. I used to be very interested in the whole Elena/Katherine thing in season one. When Katherine showed up in season 2 and was quickly trapped in room after room, I was very disappointed.
This could be said of most of season 2 as well.
Yes, that’s true. I feel that it’s even more extreme this season, though. Idk. And that reminds me of a question I’ve been meaning to ask you guys: What do you think is better/worse? The second half of S2 or this first half of S3?
Because of the Jeremy/Anna madness?
Yes. There was some other stuff I was very unhappy with but the line “It’s always been Anna” was what got to me the most. I asked myself, “What’s the point of watching a TV show where things we’ve seen in past seasons suddenly don’t matter anymore? Where entire relationships are retconned in the blink of an eye? What’s the point?”
Plus, I can’t shake the feeling that the writers did this solely because of the popularity of the Jeremy/Anna ship. And if that’s the case, it’s kind of scary how much influence the more vocal shippers have.
In my opinion, *both* Elena’s and Katherine’s love for Damon is bullshit.
Oh, I totally agree. It’s kind of funny actually: Damon and Elena share so much screentime but whenever something significant happens between them, it feels like it comes totally out of the blue (e.g. Elena’s “I trust you” in this ep).
*Not* being loved by the object of his obsession was such a big part of who Damon was.
Yes!!! Especially not being loved by Katherine. I think the writers’ decision to have Katherine have loved Damon is also connected to their extreme Salvatore worshipping. Similar to how everybody who was ever romantically involved with Stefan has to be crazy in love with him because he’s just that awesome,* Katherine cannot *not* have loved Damon because he’s just that awesome. The writers love these two characters way too much (which, of course, doesn’t stop them from undermining them the way they undermine the rest of the characters), they love them so much that it’s to the detriment of their characters.
(Having said that, I can make sense of Katherine’s and Klaus’s obsession with Stefan. It works for me because it’s actually more about them and not that much about him. So I’m fine with that (although I’m majorly side-eyeing the way they are writing Stefan/Katherine this season, since they are making her obsession more about Stefan, which no, just no.) Rebekah, though? No idea.)
Now his insanity is even harder to take
I get what you mean and I think I agree. At the same time, I have to say I find Damon much easier to take this season than in the second half of S2. I guess it because there’s less of a focus on him atm. The back-half of S2 was unbearable in that regard.
Lol at these people. Why did they even introduce the concept of doppelgangers then? Also, such questions of identity are what got me interested in the show in the very beginning.
Yeah, why introduce this concept in the first place when you don’t plan on doing anything with it (apart from some scenes of Katherine impersonating Elena). I guess they only introduced it because it’s part of the premise of the books.
And yes, this doppelgänger thing and all the identity questions it raises is super interesting to me as well. It’s a shame that the show does nothing with it. Nothing when it comes to the Salvatores and their relationship with Elena, and even less than nothing when it comes to Elena and Katherine’s dynamic, which is kind of mind-blowing to me. Well, I suppose the writers feel like they can’t explore the former because they’d have to acknowledge how inherently messed up Stelena and Delena both are and we can’t have that.
This show, so much unrealised potential!
And that reminds me of a question I’ve been meaning to ask you guys: What do you think is better/worse? The second half of S2 or this first half of S3?
Right now, I am leaning towards season 3 being worse (the plot makes no sense; the characterization for Klaus and Rebekah is weak; Bonnie’s stated mission and her romantic relationship have been retconned; Damon is in the same place he was last season, etc) but being easier to take at the same time (no rapemances, people are shutting down the Salvatores to some degree, more Bonnie/Caroline, etc). I am currently in the middle of re-watching the whole show so I may have a different answer in a few days. I am still in the first half of season 2 right now. It is going slow.
What do you think is better/worse? The second half of S2 or this first half of S3?
I think the first half of s3 is a lot worse than the second half of s2. The second half of s2 was sloppy and repetitive and narratively lazy, but it more or less lead somewhere close to the conclusion of the story the season began. s3 lacks pacing and sometimes the canon of the show cannot be maintained within an episode, let alone from episode to episode. I think certain details of s3 are better (Bonnie/Caroline, Matt/Vicki, and the possibilities of the storylines even).
“What’s the point of watching a TV show where things we’ve seen in past seasons suddenly don’t matter anymore? Where entire relationships are retconned in the blink of an eye? What’s the point?”
YES! It’s hard to care about any of the relationships when this is possible. When this is what happens.
I think the writers’ decision to have Katherine have loved Damon is also connected to their extreme Salvatore worshipping. Similar to how everybody who was ever romantically involved with Stefan has to be crazy in love with him because he’s just that awesome,* Katherine cannot *not* have loved Damon because he’s just that awesome. The writers love these two characters way too much (which, of course, doesn’t stop them from undermining them the way they undermine the rest of the characters), they love them so much that it’s to the detriment of their characters.
I agree with this so much. The writers hate all the characters. There’s no way they like them and write them this way, but they are intensely focused on them. They treat the Salvatores like they aren’t comfortable with liking characters who do awful things, so they ignore those awful things and write them and the characters around them in a manner that fits that mindset. When it would be easier to let them be who they are and write them accordingly instead of ignoring that behavior and liking them anyway. Am I making sense?
(Having said that, I can make sense of Katherine’s and Klaus’s obsession with Stefan. It works for me because it’s actually more about them and not that much about him. So I’m fine with that (although I’m majorly side-eyeing the way they are writing Stefan/Katherine this season, since they are making her obsession more about Stefan, which no, just no.) Rebekah, though? No idea.)
Word to Klaus’s and Katherine’s obsessions being more about them and Stefan in relation to them (what they get from him instead of who he specifically is) which is what I love about those two relationships and I wish, this season, they were written better because there is clearly a tension there where Klaus and Katherine don’t believe that, but Stefan knows or at least is unable to believe otherwise. They’ve gone away from that with Katherine this season and it’s part of the problem with Katherine this season in general. She hasn’t been self-motivated at all and framing her feelings for Stefan as something that is about Stefan and not what she got from Stefan, especially since she’s no longer getting that is weird and an attempt at framing her feelings as normal even though they are incredibly twisted and should remain as such.
Rebekah’s feelings could be explained by the fact that the last time she was awake she was in love with him and actually prepared to lose Klaus to be with him. That’s my personal canon since the show’s explanation of “Stefan is awesome” is ridiculous.
They treat the Salvatores like they aren’t comfortable with liking characters who do awful things, so they ignore those awful things and write them and the characters around them in a manner that fits that mindset. When it would be easier to let them be who they are and write them accordingly instead of ignoring that behavior and liking them anyway. Am I making sense?
Yes, it does. So why do the writers have them do all these awful things in the first place if they aren’t comfortable with dealing with it? I guess they feel this need to prove that TVD isn’t Twilight 2.0 or sth like that and that “their vampires are ‘real vampires'” (I think they would phrase it like that if they were asked). But this still doesn’t explain things like the Andie SL, etc.I don’t understand them.
[…] which is what I love about those two relationships and I wish, this season, they were written better
Yes to both.
an attempt at framing her feelings as normal even though they are incredibly twisted and should remain as such
Yes, they should. But now KW suddenly considers Stefan and Damon as Katherine’s “true loves”.
Btw, a read a post somewhere that argued that Katherine should have major issues with the fact that Stefan was once friends Klaus, the guy who murdered her family, wanted to sacrifice her and hunted her for centuries. I thought that was an interesting idea.
Rebekah’s feelings could be explained by the fact that the last time she was awake she was in love with him and actually prepared to lose Klaus to be with him. That’s my personal canon since the show’s explanation of “Stefan is awesome” is ridiculous.
Okay. But why was she so in love with him in the first place (in the flashbacks)? Like you wrote, she even chose him over her brother. When the episode aired, I got the impression that this, too, was perhaps less about Stefan and more about her having an opportunity to break away from her brother, since her and Klaus’ relationship seemed very strained. Klaus seemed very possessive and she didn’t seem to like him very much. And then Klaus’ and Rebekah’s dynamic changed considerably in the following episodes. So Idk. It’s very weird.
Okay, I hope this makes sense, it’s late and I am typing this half asleep.
So why do the writers have them do all these awful things in the first place if they aren’t comfortable with dealing with it? I guess they feel this need to prove that TVD isn’t Twilight 2.0 or sth like that and that “their vampires are ‘real vampires’” (I think they would phrase it like that if they were asked). But this still doesn’t explain things like the Andie SL, etc.I don’t understand them.
Part of it is about the writers not wanting to be Twilight and another part is the writers wanting to have their cake and eat it too and being bad writers/storytellers while they do. There’s something incredibly disturbing about the many attempts to set Stefan and/or Damon up as heroes/anti-heroes in a universe where the only logical hero is Bonnie (or another witch/warlock). The writers want them to be heroes but they also want them to have flaws that hint at danger and I’m confusing myself a bit, but mostly it’s because I’m not sure if the writers know what they want the show to be about, outside the idea of families, but that idea lacks a moral framework and once the writers decided to do away with a moral framework entirely then the story became hollowed out. So things happen in order to make the plot work without much concern for story or character. I hope I’m making sense. I guess my point is that the writers do things with the characters because they can and they are much more concerned with ideas/plots than with the exploration of those ideas, which is why the acts of the characters rarely get more than surface level examination. I’d say this is true for all of the characters more or less, regardless of how their actions are framed, there is rarely any voicing of why characters behave in the ways they do (exceptions being the few times that Bonnie has gotten to articulate her goals and her beliefs about her powers, Katherine’s self-preservation in s2 and Damon’s spiral towards negative character growth in s2, but even these occasions are rare, rushed, or somewhat incoherent) or having the other characters behave in ways that are proper reactions or even reactions. At least that’s the way the show felt towards the end of last season and through the beginning of this one.
But now KW suddenly considers Stefan and Damon as Katherine’s “true loves”.
What? That makes no sense. At least not the Damon part and the importance of the Stefan part is questionable since it was entirely one sided from the point of her compelling him…so I don’t get it.
Btw, a read a post somewhere that argued that Katherine should have major issues with the fact that Stefan was once friends Klaus, the guy who murdered her family, wanted to sacrifice her and hunted her for centuries. I thought that was an interesting idea.
I think it’s an interesting idea but the show has failed to address any of the possibilities of Stefan and Klaus being friends. At this point, the only person who knows for sure that they knew each other in the past (with the exceptions of Klaus, Stefan, and Rebekah) is Katherine and she’s had no reaction to it and has in fact spoken in ways that ignore that friendship (her doubting whether Stefan was capable of playing Klaus, which turned out to be true, but not because Klaus figured anything out). No one has suggested how weird/convenient it was that Stefan just happened to be with Elena, the doppelganger that Klaus needed to break the curse. Who knows what Stefan and Klaus spoke about in the past? The flashbacks were condensed to one episode even though we clearly know there were more moments shared.
Though, I’m not sure who Katherine’s issues should be directed at since Stefan would have thought she was dead and had no idea she was being chased let alone who was chasing her and by that time he surely hated her and she’s scared of Klaus (or was) so who would bare the brunt of her having these issues? Klaus wants her dead and Stefan doesn’t care about her.
Okay. But why was she so in love with him in the first place (in the flashbacks)? Like you wrote, she even chose him over her brother. When the episode aired, I got the impression that this, too, was perhaps less about Stefan and more about her having an opportunity to break away from her brother, since her and Klaus’ relationship seemed very strained. Klaus seemed very possessive and she didn’t seem to like him very much. And then Klaus’ and Rebekah’s dynamic changed considerably in the following episodes. So Idk. It’s very weird
This makes complete sense. The problem with the flashbacks in The End of the Affair is that they are so condensed that we don’t even know at what point Rbekah and Stefan got together or why, prior to Klaus showing up in the flashbacks their interest in each other seemed amused at best. Which, I think PW and CH played well off each other once the two of them were meant to be in love, but those flashbacks needed some considerable space between them to flesh out the relationships.
I think whatever we didn’t see between the two of them is why she was in love with him + her desire to get away from Klaus (prior to the retcon of Ordinary People, which would suggest that Rebekah’s surprise at being stabbed by Klaus in The End of the Affair was out of place since he’d done it before) in fact the latter most likely influenced the former. But then the later episodes retconned so many of the suggestions of The End of the Affair that I have no idea. A different dynamic, between the three of them, should have emerged post “The End of the Affair” and instead nothing.
I guess my point is that the writers do things with the characters because they can and they are much more concerned with ideas/plots than with the exploration of those ideas.
Yeah, I guess it boils down to this. Sometimes I wonder if the writers ever had an idea for a shocking!twist they did not end up using.
What? That makes no sense. At least not the Damon part and the importance of the Stefan part is questionable since it was entirely one sided from the point of her compelling him…so I don’t get it.
He said that in an interview after the S2 finale. I think he said that they were her “true loves” but Katherine hasn’t realised that yet or sth like that. Yeah, it makes no sense. When I read that I knew that this didn’t bode well for the D/S/K dynamic in S3. (Btw, I remember that interview because it was one of the first KW interview I read. At that time, a lot of fans were going on about how they wanted to KW to be more involved with the show because JP was the one ruining everything and he was the “sane one” out of the two. After reading that interview I was like, “What are they talking about?”)
At this point, the only person who knows for sure that they knew each other in the past (with the exceptions of Klaus, Stefan, and Rebekah) is Katherine and she’s had no reaction to it and has in fact spoken in ways that ignore that friendship (her doubting whether Stefan was capable of playing Klaus, which turned out to be true, but not because Klaus figured anything out).
Ahhhh!!! I just realized that Katherine probably doesn’t even know that they were friends! I just remembered that, in the 20s flashbacks, Katherine arrived in Chicago after Klaus had already taken off. And in “Disturbing Behaviour”, Stefan only said that he “knew” Rebekah and Klaus. (And, like you said, Katherine had no reaction to that, which was weird.) And who knows if she will ever find out. Or, for that matter, if Damon, Elena and the others will ever find out. It seems that the plot has moved on to sth else. Ugh, sometimes it’s so hard to keep up with who knows what and who doesn’t on this show.
[But to answer your question regarding who should’ve borne the brunt of her issues. You’re right that Klaus wants her dead and that Stefan doesn’t care. I just felt that it should’ve made her even less inclined to put herself in danger to help him (which, of course, she shouldn’t be willing to in the first place) and put a damper on her “feelings” (which shouldn’t be that strong anyway, since, like you wrote, she is no longer getting anything from Stefan). I hope this makes sense.]
A different dynamic, between the three of them, should have emerged post “The End of the Affair” and instead nothing.
Yes, definitely. I wish this would have happened. It would have been more interesting than this stupid compulsion SL.
Yeah, I guess it boils down to this. Sometimes I wonder if the writers ever had an idea for a shocking!twist they did not end up using.
I highly doubt it. They discard things like making Bonnie’s mom be institutionalized because True Blood did something similar. They discard introducing a family member for Bonnie in season 2. They discard having Jeremy and Elena talk about Bonnie. They discard Stefan talking to Jeremy about nearly killing himself. These are the things they discard. Not the twisty twists.
I think he said that they were her “true loves” but Katherine hasn’t realised that yet or sth like that.
So poor wittle Katherine wasn’t really sure of how she felt? So irritating. She knew how she felt!
Or, for that matter, if Damon, Elena and the others will ever find out. It seems that the plot has moved on to sth else. Ugh, sometimes it’s so hard to keep up with who knows what and who doesn’t on this show.
If it involves the big three, I assume they already know. That’s the opposite approach I take when it comes to Bonnie knowing things (and Matt as of Homecoming).
At that time, a lot of fans were going on about how they wanted to KW to be more involved with the show because JP was the one ruining everything and he was the “sane one” out of the two. After reading that interview I was like, “What are they talking about?”)
IKR! I think that maybe JP, for wtvr reason, was(/is?) less experienced/polished when it comes to handling publicity stuff (because she was irritating as hell to me) but KW is no prize either. Remember when he said that Bonnie’s story was told in season two or the time he said that he killed off Jenna because he couldn’t write for her? JFC. That was not only maddening, it was unprofessional. Why do you have other writers in your staff then? No one can do their jobs? Ugh! Also, he always comes off so condescending in a lot of his interviews. It is like he is treating the viewers/audience like children. The show is aimed at teenagers and up – not at 2 yr olds. JP is more obviously irritating but that doesn’t make KW somehow better. Besides, I checked out some of his other work (Scream sequels, a few eps of Dawson’s Creek). I was as meh about it as I was about Kyle XY (JP’s old show). Mildly interesting but nothing to write home about. Maybe they are better *together* because they balance each other’s worst tendencies?? The show was certainly better when they worked together more closely which I am guessing they haven’t done since mid-season 2.
Remember when he said that Bonnie’s story was told in season two
“She’s another one I’m proud of.” I’m couldn’t believe it. And then he turns around and says there was too much witchy woo woo in season 2. Yet the ghost storyline in season 3 was a result of witch woo woo, he’s now made it so that vampires are a result of witch woo woo, he’s decided to make Elena’s necklace a witchy woo woo object (which has apparently been dropped). They’ve (stupidly) scaled back the amount of spells Bonnie does, but magic is still prominent on the show.
I guess they feel this need to prove that TVD isn’t Twilight 2.0 or sth like that and that “their vampires are ‘real vampires’”
Pretty much. I think they’ve even said on one occasion during season 1 that they want to move away from that particular comparison.
Btw, a read a post somewhere that argued that Katherine should have major issues with the fact that Stefan was once friends Klaus, the guy who murdered her family, wanted to sacrifice her and hunted her for centuries. I thought that was an interesting idea.
What kind of issues would she have with it?
And then Klaus’ and Rebekah’s dynamic changed considerably in the following episodes.
Ugh, it really did. In a way, it was closer to what it was in Ordinary People, with Klaus making comments about Rebekah and Rebekah chiding him (you’re mean).
What kind of issues would she have with it?
I think “major issues” was not a good way to word it. I think the poster said he/she felt that she should harbour some resentment. And that it should make her even less inclined to wanting to help the Salvatores (which she shouldn’t want to in the first place because of her self-preservation instincts).
Anyway, what I also liked about that post was that it was an attempt to look at things from Katherine’s perspective because it’s something which we don’t get in the show.
In a way, it was closer to what it was in Ordinary People, with Klaus making comments about Rebekah and Rebekah chiding him (you’re mean).
Yes, but then they made this weird pact to stay together forever after burying their mother (weird because this pact doesn’t really gel with what we were told/saw in “Klaus” and “The End of the Affair”). Btw, lol at the other siblings for leaving before their mother was buried.
And that it should make her even less inclined to wanting to help the Salvatores (which she shouldn’t want to in the first place because of her self-preservation instincts).
I definitely agree with this. Unfortunately for Katherine, the producers hadn’t yet came up with the idea of Stefan knowing Klaus and Katherine apparently being aware of this and once they did, they didn’t bother to think out how it might influence Katherine’s interactions with the Sals. Even if she didn’t know, even if we take the vagueness of her seeing Stefan in the 20s and say she didn’t know he’d been hanging with Klaus, why wouldn’t she become suspicious when Stefan said he knew Klaus? What was with the non-reaction? Assuming she didn’t know in the 20s. Katherine is someone who thinks of scenarios and possibilities. That’s why she managed to escape Klaus for so long. It would be in character for her to think of what Stefan knowing Klaus might’ve meant for her, she would have questioned their past interactions (in season 2) and question if Klaus kept tabs on her through Stefan (before quickly discarding the idea). Something.
Btw, lol at the other siblings for leaving before their mother was buried.
Such a hot mess. I’m sure that will soon be retconned when they show up. By that I mean, they’ll be presented as loyal/tight with Klaus like Rebekah was.
And that reminds me of a question I’ve been meaning to ask you guys: What do you think is better/worse? The second half of S2 or this first half of S3?
The first half of season 3. That’s something I never thought I’d say. This.show.is.cruel.
It’s kind of funny actually: Damon and Elena share so much screentime but whenever something significant happens between them, it feels like it comes totally out of the blue (e.g. Elena’s “I trust you” in this ep).
This is so true!!!!
Yes, the Matt/Vicki stuff could have been done much better. And I’m very unhappy that Vicki was already gone before the great finale of the ghost SL, so to speak, took place in “Ghost World”.
It makes me so mad because there is potential all over this show and nothing. Also, the Matt/Vicki scenes/farewell should have been in Ghost World. The fact that their separation was depicted as less tragic than Jeremy/Anna makes me so upset. The fact that Vicki’s desire for a second chance was depicted as less understandable than Anna’s desire to be around Jeremy/not be alone is upsetting. The writers could have done more and I actually think they should have found a different way to bring the ghosts in. Especially if they were going to go the “everyone can see them now” route.
Btw, why was Klaus ok with Stefan simply leaving after he de-compelled him? What happened to the deal they made in AILD? Why is it suddenly null and void? I don’t get it.
Because for the writers to remember the stories they create would be to taxing on them. Consistently this season, I’ve wondered why the writers have Stefan talking to Klaus about letting him go as if he didn’t promise and agree to spend a decade with the guy.
I’d say all of the characters had life-changing things happen to them over the course of these 9 eps. The writers just didn’t care about that.
And there’s the problem. If the characters don’t react to these things as life-changing, then what’s the point?
And I guess they were going for a callback to Masquerade. They had Matt say, “This is so weird, us being here together”, indirectly referring to Masquerade when he was compelled by Katherine.
But this parallel fails for me when I consider that they did it just for the fans/Katherine. Because did Matt even know he was with Katherine and not Elena?
I don’t know why Caroline sounded like that, but I think it was more about Rebekah than it was about Matt.
I guess, the writers can’t have statements like “This was very Elena of you, Katherine” because, in their mind, that could undermine the Salvatore brothers’ super special love for Elena and Elena being a super special person. According to the show, the Salvatores were initially attracted to Elena because she resembles Katherine. So what if Katherine actually reminded them of Elena? Could that mean that they could fall for Katherine again? I think the writers want to avoid such questions and that’s one of the reasons why they can’t have such remarks.
I think you’re right. Katherine can apparently pine for Stefan and try to bang Damon for the rest of her life, but the Salvatores cannot have any new feelings for her.
Btw, why was Klaus ok with Stefan simply leaving after he de-compelled him? What happened to the deal they made in AILD? Why is it suddenly null and void? I don’t get it.
It’s null and void now because the producers are done with the story. I love how Klaus was apparently not concerned with Stefan possibly wanting revenge. Like at all.
Thanks!
If the characters don’t react to these things as life-changing, then what’s the point?
Yeah, there’s no point then. Btw, isn’t it crazy that over the course of the first 5 episodes 3 main characters died once (and came back)? That’s insane. In general, it’s insane that every main character on the show has died at least once.
But this parallel fails for me when I consider that they did it just for the fans/Katherine. Because did Matt even know he was with Katherine and not Elena?
I thought he knew, since he apparently also knew that there was a plan to take Klaus down. (That was implied when Katherine told him Caroline didn’t know anything.) So I assumed that if he knew about their plan, he also knew about Katherine. But, coming to think of it and taking into account how Damon and Elena lamented that they couldn’t trust anybody and had to be super secretive about their super secret plan, that might actually not be the case. The more I think about it, the less sense it makes.
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes.
I think that’s the motto of this blog wrt TVD. Lol.
But yeah, Katherine tells Matt Caroline doesn’t know anything but for some reason I didn’t take that to mean that Matt knew what was going on. Didn’t he look surprised when Tyler told him Klaus had something planned? Which he shouldn’t have been if he knew the others were trying to get Klaus.
I don’t remember if he looked surprised. And yeah, he shouldn’t have been. But if the others didn’t tell him about their plan to take Klaus down, what *did* they tell him? It’s all so confusing!
I think that Elena just told Matt Rebekah wasn’t feeling well so she’d go to the dance with him. Or that they stabbed Rebekah because they were going after Klaus, and she’d go to the dance with him. Whatever happened, in my head Elena said she’d go to the dance with Matt. It’s even harder for me to wrap my mind around the idea of Matt willingly going to the dance with Katherine. Heck, I’d even prefer the first option where Elena lied all the way, even if it was never addressed. Anything’s better than Matt willingly going with Katherine.
But I’m sure they’ll tell us Elena told Matt everything. Even though there was no one she could trust outside of Damon. And I’ll hate it.
OT because I don’t know where else to ask this – When do you guys think Bill’s and Liz’s indoctrination into the Council’s ways began? Liz said that they grew up with this stuff. Tyler, Caroline, Elena and Jeremy weren’t even aware of the Council’s anti-vampire function in season one. 3 out of 4 of those kids were 17 already. Was the Council waiting for their 18th bday? Isn’t that a little late?
Liz said that they grew up with this stuff.
*Sigh.* I really think they added that in so they could cover their butts regarding the fact that up ’till Bill showed up, they made it out like Liz was the founding family. They haven’t thought about this. For all of the parties and “traditions” they have the Founding families throw, they haven’t focused on the tradition of just when exactly one becomes indoctrinated into it. Steven McQueen has been saying forever that he wants Jeremy to take up his family’s legacy. In seasons 1 and 2, all of the families seemed invested in keeping the Council a secret from their kids. The only one who acted like it was something that was to be passed on was UJ. And they had him forget when they brought him back the second time. Liz now knows that Caroline knows, and we’re not getting anything with them. And Carol has apparently fallen off the edge of the earth.
But to answer your question, I’m writing a fic and I said Liz started learning about the Council when she was 14.
It just hit me that most of us picked an ep that was written by the newest member of the writing staff (Ghost World by Rebecca Sonnenshine). If we leave out the Jeremy/Anna madness, the ep was pretty good especially when you compare it to the rest of the eps this season. According to her imdb page, her next ep is Our Town.
Btw, according to imdb, Smells Like Teen Spirit was written by JP and Caroline Dries. Hahaha! The shippiness metre on that ep was *off the charts*. I was watching some scenes through my fingers. They were so embarrassing. Plus, Elena was given faux “Girl Power” and was thwarted at every turn. However, I liked the Matt/Vicki stuff so I still remember the ep fondly.
End of the Affair was written by Caroline Dries.
Since we are still discussing this show with a great deal of intensity (God only knows why), I thought it might be worth it to keep track of who is writing what
Yep, bar the Jeremy/Anna madness the episode was actually good. Even with the Stefan stuff, it’s good if you choose to look at it in a way that says Lexi is cray cray. Ah, Our Town. I had hopes for it until that thing about episode 12 came out. *Sigh.* I’ll die if it’s about the Originals and how MF is their town. Lord.
I had to look up Smells Like Teen Spirit. I kept thinking of prank night since, you know, they were doing actual teen stuff, but I knew I was wrong. She also wrote two of the worst episodes of season 2: The House Guest and The Sun Also Rises. Yikes. I looked up her Smallville work, and those episodes weren’t that great either.