Too pissed for a poll, so I’m just going to leave this. The thing is that Jeremy’s acts didn’t even piss me off.

The part that got me teary was Sheila’s words to Bonnie and that was a good thing. And then the episode ended, and I realized this:

I think it’s totally awesome that Bonnie kicked Jeremy to the curb. But what in holy FUCK am I supposed to make of this?! Grams tells her she’s stronger than all of this, right? And Jeremy cheats on her? Are they fucking telling me that the Black girl’s so strong that she can be alone? That she’s stronger than a relationship? HUH, KW AND JP?!

Because you see, Bonnie hasn’t actually done anything straining so far this season. She’s not beating herself over the Klaus shit. She’s really just coasting by. So while I love Sheila’s words and can put them in context of Bonnie’s journey as a witch, BONNIE WASN’T CRYING BECAUSE OF ANYTHING TO DO WITH WITCHCRAFT! She was  crying because she was hurt over Jeremy. So then Sheila tells her she’s stronger than that.

Fuck you all kinds of ways JP and KW for having Jeremy cheat on Bonnie and then trotting out some bullshit about how she’s better than to have her heart broken. She’s too strong for that shit. Fuck.You.

 

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187 thoughts on “Too pissed for a poll, so I’m just going to leave this. The thing is that Jeremy’s acts didn’t even piss me off.

  1. It makes me so incredibly mad that this is where they seem to be going and it makes me worried that they’re not going to have Bonnie in a relationship ever again. Especially since they seem to be under the impression that the only relationships that matter are…second loves (since Jeremy didn’t even think twice about Vicki) and they’re certainly not bringing on dudes for Bonnie (though Alaric is going to get another love interest for no real reason except the show’s inability to write non-romantic relationships).

  2. I cried so hard when Grams took Bonnie’s hand tears with sounds it was an ugly cry. At first I thought it was Jeremy and I was about to go off and it was Grams and the tears flowed.

    Now this Bonnie is strong is some bullsh**t so it’s okay that she was cheated she should just move on f**k this show. She doesn’t need love, Even though she is the one character who doesn’t have that love/ support system that other characters do like a dad or mom all she had was Grams and than Jeremy expect not because he didn’t care. So now she can’t even have a love interest. Agai F**k you show.

    Jeremy they have ruined you. When did Anna become the love of your life it definitely wasn’t season 1. I was there I watched it, you were all about Vicki.

    • At first I thought it was Jeremy and I was about to go off and it was Grams and the tears flowed.

      Oh my God, I was about to go off But then it turned out to be Sheila and all was well.

      It’s total bullshit. Bonnie doesn’t need love, but they haven’t even given it to her.

      I agree.

    • I thought it was Jeremy too and I was Like O_O, but then it was Grams and I knew they were trying to kill me, because the previous scene with Pearl and Anna.

      How about Bonnie and Caroline! I loved seeing them.

    • I didn’t even care about Anna and Pearl. They wasted Pearl, and I feel like this was a last ditch effort to make it seem like Anna had something more on her mind than Jeremy. She was away from her mother who she had previously done so much to be reunited with, and she never says anything about it?

      • Because Jeremy will get rid of her if she prove to him that it’s all about him. I was wishing for Pearl. She came and they reunited and I cried.

        Why the hell wasn’t Mason actually with Tyler. This episode didn’t need Damon at all. O_O

  3. God I love Caroline so much and sometimes I forget that because of Forwood but she really is Bonnie’s best friend not Elena whom I loved all of two seconds and than they had to f**k her up with the Stefan stuff.

    • Caroline was great in tonight’s episode. I was almost there with Elena when she was telling Jeremy off, but that was just too much concern for another person for her to handle in a day, apparently.

      • Elena managed to not annoy me in this ep. I could actually stand the sight of her. Elena will always be…what she is (blech) but she actually gave a real damn about her brother and some small epiphany hit home in the vast vacant space between her ears.

    • Caroline was really great in this episode. This is the first time in a while that I’ve been actively engaged with her. What a coincidence she was away from Tyler.

      I was almost there with Elena too. Then she forgot about Bonnie and suddenly didn’t want the ghosts gone anymore. All for Stefan.

    • I loved the interactions between the girls in this ep too. It seemed like all communication between Bonnie and Elena went through Caroline. I don’t recall Bonnie and Elena saying one word to each other in this ep despite all the info they passed to each other. It was pretty funny how Elena kept meaning to go to Bonnie but was never shown getting there. Reminded me of Bonnie’s first ep this season when she was trying to confide in Elena but it turned out to be Katherine who vanished at the first opportunity. I wonder how it is going to go between Elena and Bonnie in eps without Caroline.

      • It was pretty funny how Elena kept meaning to go to Bonnie but was never shown getting there.

        I know, right? I wonder when the producers will stop making Elena’s side of the friendship all talk.

  4. I actually can’t get over how much strength Caroline had in this episode. I hate Forwood and think it hurts Caroline’s story, but I never actually got how much he hurts her story until I watched her tonight being such a great friend to Bonnie. Even her attempt to save Mrs. Lockwood wasn’t turned into something about Tyler, that was great. Ugh Forwood needs to die now.

    • Who do you envision Caroline with if Tyler is out of the picture? This show is all about ships so how would that work? I am not disagreeing. I am just wondering. What do you think the issue with Forwood is and how would their stories go if they weren’t together. Can they be fixed to be more interesting and less repetitive. You tend to be so good at coming up with ideas.

      It seems like they are coming to an end, like Beremy, anyway because of the Rebekah and “siring” nonsense

      • I can’t imagine Caroline with any of the guys on the show. Damon is terrible, Stefan is terrible, Tyler is just not working probably because the producers are pushing it so hard, I think I once said the only reason I’d put her with Jeremy is because there wouldn’t be any of that gross pushing stuff like with Tyler (since Jeremy has no super strength for the producers to take advantage of), and Matt didn’t work out. I want Caroline to be with a guy who’s into her from the beginning and has never called her names. Kind of like what I thought I had with Jeremy and Bonnie. *Bitter.* Like even if he is a douche, he wouldn’t be one to her or something. He would respect her from the beginning. And none of the guys on canvas fit that. Actually the producers seem bent on making sure I don’t ship the girls with any of the guys. I couldn’t see Elena with anyone one of them until Ric started shaping up and I saw something in their scenes last episode.

      • I wouldn’t put Caroline with any of the dudes on the show. Tyler is barely a character and the definition he gains from Caroline manages to usurp her story without providing him with one (the writers are truly brilliant, Forwood is a magical ship because neither of them gain anything from it and they take over each other’s storylines without actually gaining a storyline. I want to know how they have jobs and I don’t). Matt needs to be single and he was awful to her. Damon is horrible. Stefan is horrible and should probably die or undergo therapy…or die. Jeremy’s current storyline has probably made it necessary for him to be single for at least a season. I’d prefer for Caroline to be single for awhile. Maybe with random recurring boyfriends, but without the need for a boyfriend or a boy driving her story.

        My issue with Forwood is that they shouldn’t be where they are at this point and they exist in a bubble that is somehow separate from their own actions against each other. The only thing I could think of to fix them would be for the writing to take a giant step back away from all the sex and love declarations and probably to create drama by having Caroline finally talk about what it means to her to be a vampire and what she feels she’s lost. Because with the exception of I think Rose, the vampires on this show don’t really talk about what they’ve lost. The show could also explore all the ways in which she keeps her life normal or tries to force a normal. This could come up against Tyler’s douche behavior from becoming a hybrid and they could have easily explained his behavior by acknowledging that Tyler is an arrogant punk who would take to all of this power with a smile on his face. If they wanted to use siring they could acknowledge that Tyler was cut off from his familial pack when Mason died, which is why he never truly bonded with Jules or any other werewolves, and then Klaus took him on as family. Going off of that they could make it something he was reluctantly into (being loyal to Klaus) because Klaus forced this onto him and now he has to start thinking about the fact that despite having all this power he is simply working with someone who doesn’t particularly care about him as a person. This is what could be going on with them personally and then together it would be about them trying to understand and trust one another or maybe finding a common ground. Hell, I’d even take them exploring the extent of their abilities together. And I’d give Matt back to Tyler as a friend. Because Matt can’t get away from this and Tyler needs someone to talk to. Someone who will call him on his shit, but will also just present an opportunity for him to be normal. Both Tyler and Caroline would interact with their moms more, considering their moms were raised to hate creates like them and Tyler is both a vampire and a werewolf, something the Council, through the maunverings of the Lockwoods, never considered.

  5. Okay I just don’t understand why they had Jeremy say Anna is love of his life is he going to die to be with her. It was always going to go nowhere she was never coming back so what was the point. Just to hurt Bonnie I don’t get it. I knew the whole time it was going to end with Anna and Pearl as it should so now what for Jeremy.

    Where was Jenna no Jenna and what about Tyler I think he deserved to see Mason. The episode with Tyler’s whole family in it and he is nowhere to be found.

    • That’s a good point. What even is Jeremy’s story now. He doesn’t seem to have very many goals. He’s never going to see Anna again, but the chance to kiss her was enough to throw a relationship, that he spent a good portion of last season pursuing, away and then, suddenly she was the love of his life.

      What is he going to do now?

    • Just to hurt Bonnie I don’t get it.

      Exactly. Jeremy is now completely directionless. Bonnie can still carry herself. Relationships was never the main way she got stories. But the same can’t be said for Jeremy.

      Notice how he’s going to miss the next two episodes.

    • I was wondering where Jenna was too. I had a feeling that she was banging against people’s minds and wondering fruitlessly why no one was thinking of her. I’m just thinking about Jenna weeping in a corner because no one is thinking of her …

      And I’m also wondering WHY Mason was hanging out with Damon when he could have gone to see Tyler and then we wouldn’t have to suffer through Damon in this episode.

      Though lol at Stefan leaving him locked up in a chair.

        • How can aunt Jenna not have unresolved business? Is it because Alaric took over as guardian? SMH. At first, I thought it had something to do with the fact that the ghosts had murdered people before they died because they were all werewolves and vampires. But Pearl and Anna found “peace” at the end I think. They didn’t actually do anything to try to earn redemption like Mason.

  6. What I can’t get over is that Jeremy is still alive. Like there’s no point to him being alive right now. Bonnie definitely shouldn’t take him back. Elena cares about him at her convenience. Matt’s about to be taken back into Forwood’s shenanigans.

    He’s got no one. He’s barely got Alaric. I don’t hate Jeremy, but why would they basically write him out of the story?

    (I also take issue with fandom’s tendency to rank love interests by who came first and what not…the show does it too but shows tend to do it, so I’m not even going to address that right now…like why should love work like that? Especially on a tv show. Why should love work in a way that it only matters once? It’s gross to me that shows do this a lot and then fandom takes that and uses for ship validity. It’s why I can’t be into Bonnie being with any of the other dudes on the show 1) the show would talk about the previous relationships and 2) fandom would never let the older ships die. It’s definitely why I can’t get into Damon/Bonnie. Am I making sense? I think it’s a pretty twisted way to look at love because it locks relationships for these characters down when they are 16/17 years old and love can’t always work like that. These relationships are never easy either. There’s always some suffering or plot convienent fidelity and I hate it because it hurts both characters, but it hurts characters like Bonnie the worst. I’m going to stop talking now.)

    • That’s basically what’s happened. Who’s he going to talk to? He’s got no one. Matt’s going to go back to primarily interacting with Caroline. Talk about footholds, Jeremy now has none on this show.

      Is it bad that part of me hoped he had died when he was creepily looking at Anna while Elena said he couldn’t be with her because she’s a ghost? I felt such relief thinking of the possibility. I hate that this ship is ruined.

      I completely agree. And the thing is that they’re selective about it. Damon loved Katherine, but that doesn’t compare to the way he loves Elena. Jeremy loved Vicky, but that apparently doesn’t compare to how he loves Anna. But I’m sure Elena’s love for Damon won’t compare to how she feels about Stefan.

      I hate how Jeremy was looking at Bonnie in that last scene. Like he’d never seen her before. It’s like he wasn’t in season 2. She was crying. Is this really the same guy who shot off the floor to hold her after gained the powers of the 100 witches?

      • Jeremy/Bonnie relationship another thing that didn’t happen in season 2. Season 2 the season where everything that happened is subject to change.

      • Nope. I was hoping he’d die as well. NOt maliciously or anything, but so his storyline would have a purpose. It basically lead to him figuring out that he loved Anna and then not getting with her. What would he have done if Anna had disappeared after he kissed her and Elena hadn’t caught him? Just not told her? I’ve never been more glad that Elena was involved with Jeremy’s storyline.

        It’s all so convenient. For the past 145 years Stefan and Damon have spent no time forming substantial relationships or having sex apparently. Not sex that matter (with Damon) or sex they can remember (with Stefan). I can’t get over the fact that Jeremy and Vicki interacted once. And he ignored everything she said in order to sit around and say the same things over and over with Anna.

        I can’t wait until we hear about how epic Caroline love for Tyler is when compared to her love for Matt. Can’t wait.

        I hate how Jeremy was looking at Bonnie in that last scene. Like he’d never seen her before. It’s like he wasn’t in season 2. She was crying. Is this really the same guy who shot off the floor to hold her after gained the powers of the 100 witches?

        He was so horrible in that scene. It doesn’t make sense within the context of their relationship in s2. It makes no sense.

        I can’t with this show and how they forget things or how certain relationships get thrown under the bus in order to hold up others. The lack of concern for consistency and the lack of investment in the complexity of romantic, platonic, and familial relationships, relationships that the show actually possesses, coupled with their desire to move the story along at a fast “gotcha” pace makes this show so clumsy and leads to lacking a unifying theme or narrative that is not immediately shot down by whatever half-assed attempt at something shocking and epic needs to happen in any given week. Nothing matters on this show. Not if history can be written.

        • NOt maliciously or anything, but so his storyline would have a purpose.

          Exactly. So does he have closure or what? It seems Anna got more closure than he did. She’s dead, and she had to be the one to let him go. Wtf? Why didn’t they do this storyline in season 2? Make Jeremy get with Sarah and then bring Anna back.

          A thousand yes(es) to your last paragraph. What is the point of tearing Jeremy and Bonnie down in this way? They couldn’t make it organic?

        • I can’t wait until we hear about how epic Caroline love for Tyler is when compared to her love for Matt. Can’t wait.

          Oh but wait. Caroline is Tyler’s first love. Now he has to find someone who already had a first love and is looking for a second love – Enter Rebekah

      • I hate how Jeremy was looking at Bonnie in that last scene

        Do you think that was a problem with the acting? It seems to me that SM has been incredibly wooden lately. I know the writing wasn’t there because there were no lines about how much Jeremy cared about Bonnie but it seems to me that the actor could have done something. Throughout this storyline, it seemed like he didn’t give a damn about Bonnie

        • I think it’s both the acting and the directing, the directing and writing being more to blame in this case, imo. Come on, JP said Malese made her cry but they happened to fail where SM was concerned. I think SM wasn’t into how this story played out and it reflected. I also think another factor is the fact that he might not know where Jeremy’s going from here. Does he love Bonnie? Does he care about Bonnie? Did the producers tell him? Because while Matt Davis was talking about how he had meetings with JP, the actors often say they have no idea what’s going on in the next episode until they get the script. How Jeremy reacts to Bonnie in that last scene should be something that was planned out, not something you keep from the actor, because he needs to know if Jeremy is sorry and loves or really likes Bonnie so that we don’t go wtf when he’s looking at her like he doesn’t know her in one episode and then is fighting to get her back in the next. Jeremy’s missing from the next two episodes, so I don’t know how much SM knows or was working with.

    • I feel like Jeremy is about to be Matt season 2 he has nothing going on period. He even works at the Grill.
      Now he has no s/l and they didn’t even do a good job with him with the ghost s/l and apparently they planned this out. So he is screwed for the rest of the season.

  7. I think the things they revealed about the Stefan/Lexi relationship are scary not only because of the fact that the retconning reduced their relationship to nothing more than that of an addict and his sponsor (damaging both characters, but Lexi especially, in the process), but because it could have been so much more effective if they’d kept the canon/subtext from “162 Candles.” They weren’t going to cure Stefan in this episode. His torture was just another thing to give Elena hope, so instead of doing that, it would have been nice if, instead of getting more Stelena drama, we’d seen someone who knew Stefan, as he was introduced, having to confront this side of him and turning away from that. Because I can imagine, going off of “162 Candles” that whenever Stefan disappeared, Lexi assumed it was to do his own thing and not to become a murderer. It would have been nice to see someone who knew Stefan (actually knew him) decide there was nothing worth saving there. Finding out that they’d been lied to and giving up, especially from a place where giving up would mean nothing, since Lexi’s dead. Instead what we discovered was that Lexi wasted 145 years trying to get Stefan to stop and she failed each time. She really failed because Stefan may as well have just fallen off the wagon once she set him loose. She wasted her time. And he resented her for it. They weren’t friends. Are we meant to believe that shortly after meeting Stefan, Lexi tortured him in order to make him stop drinking human blood? Are we meant to believe their friendship means anything if that’s the case? As far as I can tell there’s nothing there for either Stefan or Lexi to like in each other. Who is Lexi? Stefan’s got no clue. And Lexi has spent their entire relationship trying to make Stefan feel things he’s either reluctant or incapable of feeling. It’s gross.Their relationship would probably more problematic on Lexi’s end than on Stefan’s, if she hadn’t been erased as a character. If they’d made this “saving vampires” something that Lexi did that would be one thing, but they didn’t.

    • His torture was just another thing to give Elena hope, so instead of doing that, it would have been nice if, instead of getting more Stelena drama, we’d seen someone who knew Stefan, as he was introduced, having to confront this side of him and turning away from that.

      I agree!!! This would have been so much better.

      As far as I can tell there’s nothing there for either Stefan or Lexi to like in each other.

      They’ve turned the friendship into something that was mostly violent (since Stefan fell off the wagon so many times) with only brief periods of happiness. And let’s also mention that Lexi’s happiness in that friendship is now based on how well Stefan was doing. Lexi cared so much that she spent years torturing Stefan into what she believed he could be, not having any idea what he was like before being a Ripper since she met him while he was a Ripper. She just saw him and decided to get super invested.

      • I don’t want to say it was like some twisted form of cultish abuse, but it was. It’s like she imprinted on Stefan (for whatever reason) and then decided to shape him into who she thought he could be and at the end of the day he was never okay with that. But she would always track him down and do it again. I don’t get it at all. He owes her nothing. She has no reason to be invested and yet this is their relationship.

        • And he kept staying after he was “fixed.” Like he completely squashed down his resentment in order to smile and act like she was a positive influence in his life.

          • It’s a shame these writers couldn’t finish a sentence if someone sat them down with all the parts because this could work if what one had to let go of with Stefan was the idea that this “good” side in him was in anyway his natural state. He had less choice in being good than he did in letting go of his emotions, even with the compulsion.

            I can totally incorporate this into my Stefan head canon. Lexi literally forced him to be good. The show has just told us that Stefan’s natural inclination is to be a highly manipulative sociopathic killer with little to no concern for others and that he’s actually in control of himself when he goes Ripper. Which is why he keeps going back to it.

            I just responded to your message. It’s cool with me if you quote me.

        • I don’t want to say it was like some twisted form of cultish abuse,

          This is another sign of how twisted I am but this is exactly where I thought the story was going – especially after they revealed that Lexi followed him in the 1920s and spent 30 yrs “rehabilitating him”. Remember when I said, in another comment thread, that I felt like people have always been trying to control Stefan. In TWOP, I wrote a while back that I got the impression that Stefan had been the victim of a series of people (Katherine, Damon, Klaus and, now Lexi). This whole thing fit my headcannon of Stefan being victimized over and over again then being forced to accept that abuse and even see it as good. I am not sure “abuse” is the right word – maybe “control” is. Why would a person spend that much time rehabbing someone else? What was in it for her? I think she got off on molding Stefan. I think it gave her a high to create this person and then watch her creation out in the world just waiting for him to slip again.

          • Because she is a psycho.

            Your speculation about Lexi trying to fix Stefan not only turned out to be right, but you sold her short. Girl has been doing it since she met Stefan! How are you going to torture someone you just met and tell them it’s for their own good. And then she’d try to make him laugh afterwards? Every time? They have made Lexi truly psychotic.

            • In my head, this is exactly how I thought it went down for a long time but I didn’t want to say it because I thought it would make me look crazy. It turns out that JP is just as crazy as I am. Actually, crazier given all the messed up stuff that has happened on the show. At least this time someone (Elena) reacted to it negatively. That is all I want from the show. I just want the characters have believable reactions to these things. Otherwise, it feels like the show is telling me that something I know to be messed up isn’t. It creates this feeling of cognitive dissonance(right term??) in me. It feels incredibly uncomfortable and takes me out of the show.

              • Yep, cognitive dissonance is the right term.

                How did Elena react negatively? Especially since she told Lexi she knows what to do know. Which you would think means she’s going to start torturing Stefan, but that won’t be the case. So her line kind of makes no sense.

                • Especially since she told Lexi she knows what to do know.

                  I thought she worded it vaguely like that to help Lexi move on. She knew what *she* was going to do. It just wasn’t the same as what Lexi would do. She actually ran out of the room at one point because she couldn’t take the torture anymore. Lexi told Stefan something like, “You say this all the time until I *make* you feel something. Elena said that it wasn’t up to her. It is up to Stefan. She still left him locked up for obvious reasons. Well, “obvious” just for this one ep because Elena was shown to actually care about the death of strangers. Lol.

                • Basically, what Elena was going to do was give Stefan the choice that Lexi didn’t give him. Of course, this so called choice is very limited because he still locked up.

                  This is how I see it anyway. I am sure the next ep will include Stelena torture scenes and this show will go right back to making me physically ill

                • Just saw the extended preview. They are going to torture Stefan. Oh yeah. I was wrong as usual. I keep hoping for the best and get crushed each and every single time.

                  You guys, torture is always the answer. Torture=love

          • This whole thing fit my headcannon of Stefan being victimized over and over again then being forced to accept that abuse and even see it as good.

            I don’t think this fits for Damon because that relationship is mutually destructive on both sides (or for Klaus during the 20s, but definitely now) but I agree with this to a certain extent, especially when it comes to Katherine and Lexi, who both forced him to behave in the way they wanted him to. Only Katherine gets his hate because Lexi was more successful. She kept on coming back and sticking it out so in his “good” state he’s able to see her as good and as a positive influence. I imagine he gets to a point, when they’re back to being Stefan and Lexi, when he’s no longer faking (in his head at least), but then that falls a part because, if Ghost World proves anything about Stefan’s feelings for Lexi, he probably loathed her, Stefan doesn’t want to be molded. I feel like I’m saying this wrong, but what Lexi did to Stefan feels like an extreme version of what Katherine did to him. Only the show will never truly address what Katherine did and it seems to be framing what Lexi did as good because she took, someone she’d just met, and tortured him into being good…for absolutely no reason.

            • I don’t think this fits for Damon because that relationship is mutually destructive on both sides

              I always thought that it was more destructive from Damon’s side. Damon let Katherine use his 17 yr old brother. Sometimes I think the power dynamics on this show would make more sense if the genders of some of the characters were reversed or if the characters were played by much younger actors. Like say if adult Donna was totally ok with an older man using her 17 yr old sister Stefanie, how would that look? The only problem Donna had with the situation was that she was jealous. She wished the older man had chosen her exclusively. She gave no thought to protecting her little sister. She even tried to convince her little sister to not tell any adults about what was happening to her and blamed Stefanie when their father stepped in. When their father realized that his daughters were forever tainted by the older man, he rejected them. After their family got destroyed and Stefanie no longer had a parent, Donna left Stefanie under the care of a strange older man named Alex who seemed unusually fixated on Stefanie. Alex was sure that he could tame Stefanie and make her a good little girl again. Again, Donna gave no thought to how Alex was going to “fix” Stefanie. Years later when “fixed” Stefanie is trying to have an “upright” life again, Donna reminds her over and over again that she is forever tainted.

                • My former fandom friend and I always saw it this way. We were wondering why other people didn’t until we realized that the characters were being treated differently solely based on their gender. This feels like a story that would have played out in fiction with female characters, right?

                    • I also meant the audience though. The audience are treating some of these things differently because they are guys. What Katherine did to Stefan was vile and Damon didn’t give a damn. No one really gets on Damon for that.

                    • I feel like the producers think that they can get away with way more because Stefan is a dude and his abusers are women.,

              • I feel like the producers think that they can get away with way more because Stefan is a dude and his abusers are women.

                I think this is definitely the case. I also think the writers use what Katherine did to Stefan the same way the fandom sometimes uses it, to ignore or gloss over what Damon did to Caroline and Andie. Because I remember when fandom got itself in twist over Damon critics because “Katherine did the same thing to Stefan and no one said anything about that” which, while true for most fans, didn’t negate Damon’s actions.

                This is part of why I was so excited last season when Katherine said that she would always choose Stefan because I thought the writers would explore how twisted that was on her part and go into all the reasons that Stefan’s stoic “you have no effect on me Katherine” reaction was a defense mechanism against what she’d done to him and what she’d stolen from him and how he would eventually have to truly unbox all of those feelings. The same way that Damon’s constant throwing of his feelings for Elena into Katherine’s face is his defense mechanism.

                • Because I remember when fandom got itself in twist over Damon critics because “Katherine did the same thing to Stefan and no one said anything about that” which, while true for most fans, didn’t negate Damon’s actions.

                  I joined online fandom during season 2 and was kinda shocked that people were only posting Katherine/Stefan rape meta mid-season 2. I was like, WTF?! I want someone to ask the producers directly if they think all of this is rape at one of the conventions. I am never going to be able to get to one but I wish someone would ask.

                  This is part of why I was so excited last season when Katherine said that she would always choose Stefan because I thought the writers would explore how twisted that was on her part and go into all the reasons that Stefan’s stoic “you have no effect on me Katherine” reaction was a defense mechanism against what she’d done to him and what she’d stolen from him and how he would eventually have to truly unbox all of those feelings.

                  Me too! But it went nowhere. Why did they even have them trapped in that tomb together? What was the point if they weren’t going anywhere with this? It looks like they only wanted to prove how ~strong Stelena is by showing his lack of reaction to Katherine. A lot of season one was about the effect that Katherine had on the Salvatores. It seems like all that got waaaay diminished or erased in season 2.

                  • Why did they even have them trapped in that tomb together? What was the point if they weren’t going anywhere with this?

                    I am so over learning how strong Stelena is, but I think this was only part of why he got trapped in the tomb and then the writers changed their mind. Because there was the deleted scene where Stefan got into Katherine’s head made her uncomfortable and then just snapped on her and it was violent and cold and sinister and everything that it should have been, even while still failing at being an explicit admission of how Stefan’s hatred of Katherine has nothing to do with her being a bad person and everything to do with what she did to him, but the scene got deleted. I still can’t understand why it wasn’t in the episode, unless they wanted Stefan to look good instead of troubled (which is selling him short, quite frankly) which he was.

                    The writers forgot about it in s2 because JP got way too invested in Elijah and created a family of 9 for him and promptly forgot about Katherine.

                    • Are the deleted scenes cannon? If so, that whole thing would make more sense like you say. Maybe it got deleted because it wouldn’t make sense for Stefan, who is a lot younger, to be able to get into Katherine’s head?? She did drink from Jeremy not long before this.

              • Are the deleted scenes cannon? If so, that whole thing would make more sense like you say. Maybe it got deleted because it wouldn’t make sense for Stefan, who is a lot younger, to be able to get into Katherine’s head?? She did drink from Jeremy not long before this.

                Deleted scenes aren’t canon. It made sense if only because, even if she’d just fed from Jeremy, Stefan had been drinking human blood for a bit by that point and Katherine had been virtually starving before and the mind game thing seems to be about putting up a block/feeding on human blood than age specifically. So I figured she wasn’t putting up a block or was still pretty malnourished despite having had Jeremy’s blood the night before.

      • She just saw him and decided to get super invested.

        It just occurred to me that based on this ghost!plot business, Lexi has been waiting to torture Stefan for over three months. Following him around and waiting. Or hoping at the very least.

        • Lexi was all “Stefan I don’t know how you do it! Want some of my human blood! *wink*”

          That was back when she was a real character.

  8. I just realized they killed the Fell character we didn’t even meet him.
    I was hoping Katherine would show up as a ghost confirmation that she in fact dead.

  9. Oh wow Alta I remember listening to one of your podcast during the summer where you said you couldn’t see how the Bonnie/Jeremy break up would come about and that you hoped that it just didn’t ruin the characters or something like that. They totally ruined Jeremy.

  10. Something jumped out at me while watching the ep. Why did Caroline call Grams Ms. Sheila instead of Ms. Bennett? She calls Carol Mrs. Lockwood. Is it a Southern thing? If so, what is the diff between the two ways of addressing women?

    • It’s a Southern. One of the people on tumblr, said it’s very Southern. As for Carol vs. Sheila, I’m not sure, but I think it might be because of Sheila’s age. And also Carol is the Mayor’s wife. I’m thinking not many people would opt to call her Miss Carol instead of Mrs. Lockwood.

  11. the whole Jeremy incident shouldn’t have happened because it is going to make next episode depressing and boring, well anyways i think that Bonnie is going to end up with Matt because I could sense it when she saved him from drowning..so they had to remove Jeremy from the picture just like they did with the Caroline, Tyler and Matt triangle.

    • Noooo! They better put Matt right back in that triangle if the only option is to put him with Bonnie.

      I think more than for ship purposes, the reason behind having Bonnie save Matt’s life and giving them the scenes in that episode is because Bonnie needed to get involved so it didn’t seem Matt was just running to her when he needed help with Vicky. As we can see in this episode, they stuck with his character when they had him walk away once his sister was no longer involved.

      • True…but next episode is going to be really awkward for Jeremy and Bonnie but i really want to know how they will finally get past it and maybe see other people. Matt and Bonnie would be a terrible couple though.

  12. It just occurred to me that Jeremy didn’t even start to have feelings for Anna again until Bonnie came back to Mystic Falls. Before then, he was just seeing Anna and Vicki and trying to figure things out, but as soon as Bonnie came back there was something about seeing Anna that was important, outside of the fact that she was dead.

    From a storytelling point of view, that’s bad. Because they didn’t even hint at anything romantic prior to Bonnie’s return. Jeremy was just freaking out and not telling anyone.

  13. Do you guys think that Lexi made up the whole idea of a “Ripper”? Do you think that Stefan’s Ripper tendencies and torture techniques came from his “rehab” with Lexi? Do you think that he would have learned to control himself if Lexi hadn’t come into his life? Do you think that his cycles of turning his switch off and on are a result of the “rehab”? Maybe he could only maintain this forced persona for so long before he couldn’t take it anymore and shut down. Or maybe Lexi created or reinforced an incredible sense of self-loathing and that is what would lead him to shut down??

    • No, I don’t think she did. I think Stefan’s Ripper tendencies are his own and so are his torture techniques. I’m thinking he became more and more violent the more Lexi tortured him because of the times he spent not being himself.

      Do you think that he would have learned to control himself if Lexi hadn’t come into his life?

      Kind of? Maybe? Stefan was never out of control though. Lexi felt he was out of control. I think if Lexi had never come into his life, he would have bouts of not killing but would go back to killing whenever he wanted to. This might be ironic or I might be off base, but maybe if Lexi had never started torturing him, he would have had a more honest relationship with Elena since her would have never been forced to “regret” what he did and therefore hide it.

      Do you think that his cycles of turning his switch off and on are a result of the “rehab”?

      Did they say Stefan turns his switch off every time he becomes a Ripper? Because it seems he’s just always fallen back into his old habit before. Even now, he didn’t turn off his feelings until Klaus compelled him to.

      • This might be ironic or I might be off base, but maybe if Lexi had never started torturing him, he would have had a more honest relationship with Elena since her would have never been forced to “regret” what he did and therefore hide it.

        Maybe. I think Lexi wasn’t very interested in the truth of Stefan and she tortured Stefan to the point where he wasn’t very interested in sharing it with her and would instead behave as she wanted him to behave until he couldn’t do it anymore. Thinking about it, her torture stopped him from being able to grow, outside of the “I’m the most empathetic dude” mode and “kill kill kill” mode. I don’t know. I’m still trying to figure it out.

        • I think his being able to grow could have made him more open in his relationship with Elena. More honest about her Katherine connection at least. Maybe he would have been less inclined to imprint his humanity onto her, without Lexi’s “you need it and I will force you into that mindset too” presence.

          Also, I’m pretty sure that Stefan wasn’t turning off his switch in the past. They didn’t say he did, except for in the Dinner Party, where they made it seem like it was an automatic thing, only to contradict it in the Sun Also Rises. So I don’t think he turned it off each time. In fact, the show would never do this, but I think it would be interesting if, when it comes to Lexi, he turned if off during the years they were together…nevermind that doesn’t make sense.

    • Do you mean she made up the “idea” of a Ripper? Like it’s not a term other vampires would use and she made it up as this thing that is ‘the worst of the worst’? I would have said yes, but Klaus has also used the term so that shoots that idea to hell.

      I’m going to write fic (and most likely post it this time depending on school) and part of it is going to be framed around this idea of Stefan’s torture techniques getting steadily worse and messier because of the torture Lexi puts him through and the years he spends acting like the Stefan Lexi wants him to be instead of the Stefan he is. Not so much that it’s her fault, but that he feels the need to go further in an attempt to erase fitting into Lexi’s mold of him. Lexi has also, more than Emily’s words about his good heart or Damon’s belief that Stefan’s the good brother, implanted in Stefan’s mind that all he has to do is stop in order to be forgiven or considered good. Whether he would have believed that without the torture is something I’m not sure about. I think he probably wouldn’t have cared.

      I agree with Alta when she says that Stefan was never out of control, certainly not by vampire standards, and that he probably would have developed (or at least he could have) some semblance of control if Lexi hadn’t entered his life with torture on the mind. He would have still been a sociopath but possibly less off-on about his tendencies.

      • I would have said yes, but Klaus has also used the term so that shoots that idea to hell.

        Klaus hung out with Stefan though. Stefan might have told him

  14. This episode that was so terrible that I would quit the show if it wasn’t for some of the actors and if I wasn’t so bad at quitting things. Plus, I enjoy listening to the podcast and reading all of your comments way too much to really quit. 🙂

    Is none of this show’s backstory sacred?! No need to answer that one.

    Can’t decide what was worse:
    – Jeremy/Anna
    – Stefan/Lexi/Stelena
    – Mason being back and Tyler’s nowhere to be seen*
    – the cave paintings, CAVE PAINTINGS!!!

    *But you know, when Mason told Damon to meet him on the old Lockwood property and disappeared from the Mystic Grille? From now on it will be my head canon that he went to Tyler before he met up with Damon. He went to see Tyler and they had a long, meaningful talk and got to say good bye off-screen. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

    • Mason being back and Tyler’s nowhere to be seen

      They weren’t going to have Mason talk to Damon about what Damon did to him and then have him talk to Tyler in the same ep as well. That would have drawn too much of a straight line. Oh, that is right – Damon killed Mason….who is Tyler’s uncle. And Beremy and Stefan helped him. Then it would have been extra weird when Tyler hangs out with Damon or Bonnie or Jeremy in the next couple of eps like nothing happened. It is not like they are going to let the characters keep feelings about what has happened to them. There are all these in-group conflicts waiting to be exploited but it will never really happen.

  15. Oh, two more things I wanted to bring up.

    1. I don’t know if it was already brought up in the comments. I read them all but I have a terrible memory.

    So, in 3×03, Bill tried to cure Caroline of her bloodlust by torturing her and it was equated with aversion therapy. Now, Lexi is doing the same thing (and has been doing it for the past 100 years, apparently) and it’s suddenly framed as something positive. What???

    2. Mason is telling Damon that he is seeking redemption, not revenge. Yet, he was torturing Damon at the beginning of the episode. (Also, why is Mason in need of redemption? Does the show still want us to see him as a villain because he threatened to snap Elena’s neck in “Kill or Be Killed”?)

    • 1. I thought that Elena came to the conclusion that this was wrong at the end of the ep when she told Stefan it was his choice and walked out. But the extended promo for next week has proven me wrong. They really are going to torture Stefan like Lexi has done all his frigging unlife which is probably why he is so messed up to begin with. I mean, Stefan is basically the product of “aversion” therapy, right? What is even more ironic is that, in the promo, it is Damon who is going to be doing it. Damon was the one who was very forcefully telling everyone that he can’t be changed just a few eps ago.

      2. I was wondering the same thing. What does Mason need redemption for? For that matter, what does Vicky need redemption for? What was she doing in purgatory or limbo or wherever she was? Is it because werewolves and vampires have usually killed at least one person because of what they are?

      • 1. re: the promo – I have some thoughts about this but I’m gonna reply to this is in the thread for next week’s ep.

        2. We will never know. Didn’t the producers say that they would throw some light onto the question what happens to vampires after they die? Well, technically, they did but they really didn’t, if you know what I mean. I don’t think they spent much time on thinking about this. They’re not interested in mythology/world-building.
        There were so many spoilers about the ghost SL before the season started, and so many things that were said never happened. It is so sad. This SL had so much potential.

    • That’s a good point. Granted I missed most of Mason’s dialogue, but why the heck would he be in need of redemption? Are they forgetting he was duped by Katherine too? Dude was basically a tool in this episode to lead the mains to the cave. Let’s see how much Tyler will be involved in this story considering the thing is on his property.

  16. Is it possible that Jeremy thought he loved Anna more because she needed him more? Maybe Jeremy feels better when his own loneliness and sadness are reflected back at him? Bonnie has been looking happy lately and is no longer stressed to the degree she was last season.

    • I expanded on the opening rant for this post and posted it on my lj and linked it to a couple of places. In one of them someone commented that they felt Jeremy had a savior complex and someone else said it might stretch back to the death of his parents. I really like the idea. If only the show would go with it:http://thewitchgoddess.livejournal.com/166092.html#comments

  17. I am not sure why Katherine is still there, i mean she is useful sometimes but other than that she doesn’t need to be there, they need to kill her off like they did with Isobel unless Damon still has feelings for her, then that would be deja vu . Poor damon i don’t see him ever being happy even if stefan dies or is evil for good, him and elena will never be together. I was thinking maybe there should be another doppleganger out there for damon….naahhhhh that would just kill the show!

  18. Another small thing that jumped out at me – Damon and Mason were carrying kerosene lamps while Alaric brought a flashlight. What was that about? I haven’t rewatched the ep this time so I am not sure if it was shown where the kerosene lamps came from. Do you guys think they are a hold over from when people used kerosene lamps instead of paper lanterns? Maybe there are still a few kerosene lamps around for the sake of tradition. Are paper lanterns safer?

    Or maybe they were in the Salvatore house. The Salvatores are really old, after all.

  19. Ghost World is also the title of a movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162346/

    At the end, the protagonist gets on a “not in service” bus to leave town after she screws up every relationship in her life and can’t conform enough to have a decent life or something. idk. Anyway, a lot of people interpret the ending as a metaphor for suicide. Maybe Jeremy will die or move to different plane. Btw, the movie has nothing to do with this ep as far as I can see. I am reaching with the Jeremy comparison. Has anyone else watched the movie? If so, are there any similarities you guys can see? Maybe something to do with conformity??

        • I was never that into Bonnie and Luka. Especially when it came to light that, surprise surprise, he was using her. But I saw early on that the triangle really wasn’t and the show knew which one Bonnie would end up with.

          • Yeah, Luka was using her but he was at least conflicted and it was to save his sister (or so he thought). Anyway, I can’t ship Bonnie with anyone on the show right now. I wish they would bring in a guy for her but they won’t.

    • I wrote up a whole Bonnie/Jeremy synopsis based on this idea. I hope this is where the producers are going (but they most likely aren’t), that this ghost thing would make him wonder why he wanted to be with a dead person, and he’d think on it and maybe end up going to therapy, because having a savior complex isn’t always a damning thing, I don’t think. With the example you gave, I would think it’s more dangerous/hurtful to others when it goes uncheck.

  20. I really don’t think Matt/Bonnie is as inevitable as the rest of fandom seems to. The show will probably screw with my desires and beliefs yet again when it comes to these characters, but Matt doesn’t seem the type to jump into a relationship with the ex of a friend, even if the show has forgotten that Matt and Jeremy were friends at the beginning of the season. Bonnie isn’t the type to immediately jump into a relationship after getting out of one. There’s also the fact that her mom is coming along and if all the pre-season promises of her being at the center of the Klaus/Stefan storyline are to be believed, she’ll probably start interacting with them soon but who knows. the writers do just seem to talk most of the time. Even if they start interacting more, I’m hoping it would be on the friendship level or even on the “I understand that whole absent parent thing” conversations. I don’t know. Maybe because I interpreted a lot of their scenes as having to do with friendship and not with budding/potential romance. Which is how Matt/Caroline, Caroline/Tyler, and to a certain degree Bonnie/Jeremy began. Romance seemed the inevitable conclusion of those stories, with the slight exception being Bonnie/Jeremy. Also, I think their history is too shared and too much a part of their relationship, as it should be, for the writers to be interested in going there. Bonnie/Jeremy, Tyler/Caroline, and Matt/Caroline all had an element of “didn’t really know you outside of the more important person you associated with” before to them (Matt for Tyler/Caroline, Elena for Caroline/Matt and Bonnie/Jeremy), but Matt and Bonnie clearly know each other. Maybe not as well as they know Elena, Tyler, or Caroline, but they wouldn’t be starting from the same place that any of the other relationships started from and the writers seem so invested in faking the element of discovery to go for the friends falling in love plot.

    Am I just reaching because I don’t want the show to ruin the only boy/girl relationship on the show that interests me?

    My grammar is al over the place up there.

    • I really don’t think Matt/Bonnie is as inevitable as the rest of fandom seems to.

      I agree tbh. I just don’t want to go around saying it because I don’t want to seem overconfident. But I totally think it. There’s also the fact that Bonnie knows way to much about Matt The Boyfriend. Elena had her ear while she was with Matt (surely) and Caroline had her ear. Come on, now. She knows way too much about his love life.

      • Come on, now. She knows way too much about his love life.

        I was thinking the same thing. Especially since, she has some sense of it from his side as well. I imagine them talking about how she knows too much about him as a boyfriend and laughing the idea of dating off. Mostly because I can’t get them as friends out of my head.

  21. When I imagine a Matt/Bonnie ship, I see them both withdrawing as soon as they reach an emotionally rough patch. More than anything else, that is the part that bothers me. They both feel the need to protect themselves if that makes any sense. It is like they have a shell around themselves. How will a relationship between these two work for more than a couple of weeks? Idk. Maybe it will teach them to be more emotionally available/vulnerable because, for once, they can’t take it for granted that the other person will do the bulk of the reaching out.

    if all the pre-season promises of her being at the center of the Klaus/Stefan storyline are to be believed

    The necklace told her to “kill Klaus” in this ep so that is going to happen. Btw, can anyone make choices on this show anymore? Will Bonnie only want to kill Klaus because of Original Witch’s manipulations? Did season 2 not exist? Dear God!

    • When I imagine a Matt/Bonnie ship, I see them both withdrawing as soon as they reach an emotionally rough patch. More than anything else, that is the part that bothers me. They both feel the need to protect themselves if that makes any sense. It is like they have a shell around themselves. How will a relationship between these two work for more than a couple of weeks? Idk. Maybe it will teach them to be more emotionally available/vulnerable because, for once, they can’t take it for granted that the other person will do the bulk of the reaching out.

      They would actually make for an interesting relationship if 1) Zach Roerig hadn’t started playing Matt so “I’M SO PENT UP!” 2) if Matt hadn’t gone out with Elena and Caroline 3) if Matt wasn’t friends with Jeremy and 4) if the writers weren’t really bad at writing and storytelling and coherency.

      Because the prospect of watching to emotionally reserved/guarded people finding out how to be less so together is actually interesting, but the show wouldn’t be able to handle it. I also think they can manage a similar sort of emotionally vulnerability within a friendship. Especially since their friendship would survive (has survived) longer than a few weeks with the emotional guardedness. Plus, I just want them to be friends.

      Did season 2 not exist?

      I’m starting to think that s2 only sorta existed and s1 is a haze of characters instead of actual plotlines. And to answer your question about Bonnie: Apparently.

      • 1) Zach Roerig hadn’t started playing Matt so “I’M SO PENT UP!”

        Maybe ZR is not a strong actor so he is not portraying it properly but I think Matt should be pent up. Everyone lied to him to him,covered up his sister’s murder and he is all alone. I mean, at least Elena can pressure Alaric into forming a family with her. Who can Matt reach out to? Maybe he is trying really hard to move on but he has a lot of anger inside. Of course, the writers aren’t going to do anything with that and someone should really pass on that memo to ZR.

        • Oh no, I definitely think Matt should be pent up and just struggling to interact with most everyone (except for Tyler because he had no idea and Bonnie and Caroline and Jeremy, to a lesser extent) on a civil level, but that’s not what the writers are giving Zach Roerig to work with, so instead he comes across as this really angry guy (who arguably should be angry) but there’s nothing there. So everyone ends up getting the brunt of something he’ll never be able to voice, nor will the writing ever acknowledge. On the one hand I enjoy it because, so many of the characters on the show are just okay when they shouldn’t be, but on the other hand I think Zach should take some of the anger out of Matt’s voice and put it into his body language. Spread the acting around a bit.

          I’m actually stunned at the writers always talking about who they don’t have stories for because every single one of these characters has a story worth telling and that neither requires them to do or to stay alive indefinitely in order to do it. And nearly all of Matt’s friends lying to him about how his sister died, letting him interact with her killers (Matt thanked Stefan for trying to help Vicki out. He thanked him. On more than one occasion. He even apologized for being suspicious of him. Even though Stefan did try to help Vicki out, it doesn’t matter in the end with the outcome), knowing what was going on with his sister and letting him search blindly, and later on letting him think that she just left while taking away his ability to feel suspicious of the story, and then Elena comes to him after they find Vicki’s body and offers up her condolences and I can only imagine the effect that must have had on his perspective of his friendships. But the writers won’t do anything with that.

          • Matt thanked Stefan for trying to help Vicki out. He thanked him. On more than one occasion.

            This is how you should have written that sentence

            Matt thanked Stefan for trying to help Vicki out. HE THANKED HIM!!!. ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION!!!!!!!!!

            Because somethings are that shocking.

      • if Matt wasn’t friends with Jeremy

        I have been thinking about this and I don’t think Jeremy has friends. IIRC, Jeremy and Matt didn’t interact in season one when all the friendships were established. I think Matt only happened to interact with Jeremy in Elena’s bd party because there was no other regular character he could interact with. Plus, Jeremy had some weed and Matt really needed some, apparently, to get through that party. He couldn’t really hang out with Caroline or Tyler. I think it was a way for Matt to find out about Vicki. All their other interactions were about Vicki. Once Matt seeing Vicki too, they pretty much stopped interacting.

        When I think about the structure of this ep, I see four people the story was centered around – Stefan, Bonnie, Damon and Jeremy. Each of them had a ghost and a living person they primarily interacted with. So a ghost and a friend or ally. Stefan interacted with Lexi and Elena. Damon interacted with Mason and Alaric. Bonnie interacted with Grams and Caroline. Jeremy had Anna and Elena. Jeremy shared his sister with Stefan. She was the only one there to help him navigate the “Ghost World”. She is the only important person in his life basically. I can’t imagine Matt in Elena’s place in this ep.

        This does not mean that I am into Monnie or Batt or wtvr they are being called. It is just that I don’t see them as friends and I am wondering why you do.

        • They also interacted in Haunted in season 1 when Matt asked Jeremy what he was dressed up as. And they brought Jenna home together in Masquerade. I don’t think Jeremy has a close friend like the other characters, and I think Matt could become that, but since the ghost storyline is over, the producers probably think they no longer have a reason to interact even though they work together and share being compelled in common.

        • I don’t think they were best friends or anything, but I think they were in each other’s lives enough prior to s3, without the ghosts, and the suggestion was made that, through Elena, they were in each other’s lives prior to s1. I also think they have the potential to be better friends. Matt is the only character I can see Jeremy being able to be friends with at this point, without having that effect Matt’s other friendships, with Bonnie (I see a similar s1 “Elena is not someone we talk about/You should move on” situation developing between Matt & Bonnie, if the even remembers that friendship).

          But, like Alta said, the writers rarely remember the reasons characters have for discord let alone conversation.

  22. I feel like the producers think that they can get away with way more because Stefan is a dude and his abusers are women.,

    I see what you’re saying. I also agree in terms of the audience’s reaction. I’m trying not think of the fact that the closest the audience has to something like that being done to a woman is Damon doing it to Caroline, and they still shrug that off. Maybe they’d react differently if the show was about the woman, like you said.

    • I’m trying not think of the fact that the closest the audience has to something like that being done to a woman is Damon doing it to Caroline,

      The show set it up so that people wouldn’t react to it. First, they did the Katherine/Stefan thing and no one used the word rape for that. When I was watching those scenes, I thought it was because the Salvatores were from a different time. My former fandom and I even looked up the attitudes people had about rape back then. But it is not like the show even let anyone from the present time comment on it either. Elena didn’t react to it that way. She just got angry at Katherine. The why wasn’t made clear. Second, they made sure to show that Caroline was attracted to Damon and slept with him before he started raping her. Apparently, consent given once is good for all time. Third, (see first point) it happened to a man first.

      Basically, I don’t blame the audience too much since the show is framing it in the most problematic way possible. They are whitewashing it. They played into a lot of the myths about rape.

      • The show set it up so that people wouldn’t react to it.

        Yes definitely. They didn’t even have Stefan define what happened to him as rape. Or Caroline. Or Bonnie and Elena, once they found out what happened to Caroline. Since no one on the show is talking about it, most viewers are deciding that the initial consent suggests subsequent consent. We’re also never treated to the beginning of a sex scene again for either the Katherine/Stefan or Caroline/Damon situations. We always come in on the middle or end of one after the original compulsions. Which is part of what makes it seem obvious, to me, that rape is occurring but also let’s the show never deal with the fact that consent would probably not be given.

        I’ve always wondered if Damon knew that Katherine was compelling Stefan. Has he ever said that?

        • I’ve always wondered if Damon knew that Katherine was compelling Stefan. Has he ever said that?

          I thought Damon knew because when Stefan told him it wasn’t real and that Katherine was compelling him in season one (the football scene in season one), Damon was not surprised AT ALL.

          around 2:25 of the above vid

          Later, Damon kept insisting that it was real for him which, to me, means that he saw a difference between his relationship with Katherine and Stefan’s relationship with Katherine.

          • You’re right. He wasn’t surprised. Which makes his split second of surprise at Katherine’s “it was always Stefan” reveal all the more troubling because either he thought Katherine was compelling Stefan because she wanted him (which would make his surprise something more ‘I spent the last 145 years trying to save you’ than ‘I thought you loved me’) or he thought she was doing it to mess with Stefan (which makes his jealousy really gross in retrospect). And I’m pretty sure he thought it was the latter because in Blood Brothers doesn’t he say something to the effect of “it was only supposed to be me” to Stefan?

            • “it was only supposed to be me” to Stefan?

              Yep. He didn’t view Stefan’s relationship with Katherine as “real”. And he puts a premium on “real” relationships. Remember when he told Elena that he didn’t compel her on their road trip because he wanted it to be real between them? Compulsion is for disposable people like Andie and Caroline.

              • Lol but then he compelled Elena in that bedroom scene. But that was brief and he didn’t try to have an entire relationship with her like that.

                • Yeah and that was his attempt at being selfless. Or selfish? Someone needs to hand the characters on this show some dictionaries. Actually they should hand those dictionaries to the writers.

                  • IKR! Didn’t JP say something like, it was a Damon hero moment? I LOLed so hard at that. Fandom screwed so much with my perception of that scene though. When I first saw it, I thought it was as messed up as when he climbed into her room and invaded her dreams in season one. But most people online were telling me that it was SO romantic. So confusing.

              • It’s funny that he thought that Katherine’s relationship with Stefan was fake, I mean it was, but the circumstances of their relationship being false was what allowed Katherine to believe it was this real true thing. She was honest with Stefan about who she was going to turn and she lied to Damon even though she didn’t have to.

                • I mean it was, but the circumstances of their relationship being false was what allowed Katherine to believe it was this real true thing.

                  LOL. Like a true narcissist, she fell in love with her own reflection.

                • Lol. Actually, this sounds like Lexi too. Who he really was didn’t matter. The only thing that mattered is who they wanted him to be – who they made him into. They fell in love with their own creation. There was no “Stefan” in those relationships.

                  • The last episode made me think that Stefan actually hates Lexi, despite her conditioning placing her in the role of savior in his life, because she’s basically Katherine only her goals are even more twisted, despite the whole reform angle of her “fixing” him torture. Because Katherine at least had a base to work off of when it came to compelling Stefan. Lexi simply met him and then decided to start torturing him because she wanted, a best friend or a pet project or a torture subject, and then spent decades upon decades telling him that what she made him was true him.

            • Yeah, he does. Not to mention that in Memory Lane he’s all jokey like, “Don’t tell me my brother’s declaration of love moved you.” And then she compels him to go away. It didn’t seem to be the first time. How come they never said Damon had to work through some of Katherine’s compulsions after he became a vamp. I know they couldn’t have been as all-encompassing like her compelling Stefan, but I wonder why they never made a deal of it. *Sigh* I know what the answer is.

              • I don’t expect them to ever address the compulsion that Damon went through (All Stefan ever got to say about it was that he spent years sorting through it). The entire s2 finale was about him accepting that he made the choice to love Katherine like that was the biggest mistake he made or the mistake he should have been ashamed of. This damn show.

              • How come they never said Damon had to work through some of Katherine’s compulsions after he became a vamp. I know they couldn’t have been as all-encompassing like her compelling Stefan, but I wonder why they never made a deal of it. *Sigh* I know what the answer is.

                Please tell me what the answer is because I don’t get it. Before the season 2 finale, I thought this is where things were going to go. I thought we were going to get flashbacks to how Damon started his relationship with Katherine – about how he took it when she revealed she is a vampire. Damon keeps claiming the he had a choice but I DON’T GET IT. How exactly did he have a choice when a powerful monster was obsessed with him and was willing to use mind control to get what she wants? Could he have said no? I don’t think so. Idk. The whole show could be about the nature of choice and about how different people perceive it. Unless that *is* what they are doing and it is going over my head.

                • Unless that *is* what they are doing and it is going over my head.

                  That is not what they are doing. I don’t know what they’re doing, but it is not that. Julie Plec says it’s about families but Julie Plec is also a liar.

                  How exactly did he have a choice when a powerful monster was obsessed with him and was willing to use mind control to get what she wants? Could he have said no? I don’t think so.

                  My impression is that the writers think that because Damon went into his relationship with Katherine, desperate for love, with his eyes open he wasn’t taken advantage of, and should take responsibility in his own manipulation because even if Damon did choose Katherine, the show should probably acknowledge that his choice was probably highly motivated by her manipulations. Katherine wasn’t honest with Damon about what she was because she was in love with him. She was honest because he was in love with her. I wonder if she thought Stefan would have a similar fascinated/infatuated reaction, especially after his declaration? Probably.

                • The answer is that since Damon loved Katherine for who she was OF COURSE he wouldn’t care that she would sometimes take his choice away. And also he’s the bad one, so apparently he’s incapable of being used by a “psycho bitch” like that. That would be like saying Jeremy accepted Bonnie for who she was, powers and all, so of course he shouldn’t care that she used a spell to knock him out.

                  I feel like this is another thing that boxes the brothers. It’s like Stefan has then market cornered on being damaged by Katherine, so Damon can’t share that experience in any meaningful way because, like you said in another comment, consent given once (or even general acceptance of a person) gives the other person free reign to do what they want or something.

                  • It’s like Stefan has then market cornered on being damaged by Katherine, so Damon can’t share that experience in any meaningful way

                    The weird thing is this is a problem that the writing and specifically the writing of Elena and Damon in the s2 finale hold, since Elena was the one talking about how Damon had a choice and Damon said it too. I just mean that in s1, Stefan was all about trying to share that trauma whenever he attempted to get close to Damon and since he seemed surprised in History Repeating (that was the episode right) when Damon revealed that Katherine had never compelled him, it’s easy to imagine that it was something he’d tried to get Damon to admit to often enough.

                    But the show isn’t interested in Damon as damaged by Katherine. He was damaged by his choices and his choices happened to include Katherine.

                    It’s weird because the way both storylines for Damon and Stefan have worked out you’d think the writers forgot what Katherine did to them or that what she did to them had a role in shaping or effecting who they were as vampires.

              • Is it because they have this need to portray the brothers as opposites all the time? Kind of like what they did with the brothers’ friendships in this ep – Damon/Alaric vs. Stefan/Lexi. Real vs. Fake. Choice vs. Control

                • Damon having a choice? I think that’s what they’re aiming for, but there were better ways to deal with how different Stefan and Damon are than trying to say that Damon had real power or power of choice in his relationship with Katherine. He certainly did have a choice, but I think the show will never address what would have happened had he bulked or the fact that his desperation was a huge factor.

    • Maybe they’d react differently if the show was about the woman, like you said.

      I would think that if season one was about a woman who was victimized by a man, it would have helped the audience see these things in a different light. Maybe I am giving people waaay too much credit.

  23. I’m about to go to sleep but I wanted to say this while the thought was still fresh.

    I’m not sure if it’s the show’s incoherence or it’s lack of adherence to at least a standard moral code or an acknowledgment that most of the main characters work outside of it, but I have a few issues with the whole “we’re going to torture Stefan to make him overcome compulsion and is bloodlust” plot.

    1) We’ve previously been shown that no one can overcome compulsion. That the only time someone can even remember what they’ve been compelled to do is if they’re 1) turning into a vampire or 2) compelled to remember.

    2) The one time we’ve been shown someone overcoming compulsion we’re told it has to do with Bill’s essential humanity (humanity, here meaning something essentially good…which glosses over all the bad people can do, but that is irrelevant at the moment), despite the fact that it wasn’t on display in the episode prior to him being compelled. Despite the fact that his ability to overcome compulsion was never explained beyond that and seemed to be due to sheer force of will. How does one overcome compulsion? What are the writers trying to say about people who can’t overcome compulsion and should they say it?

    3) I’m all for Stefan being tortured and I’d even be into him being tortured to overcome compulsion, I just wish the compulsion had nothing to do with getting his humanity back and more to do with Klaus actually having a plan and compelling Stefan not to tell in order to protect that plan without having to keep it a secret from Stefan. That would have at least injected some mystery into this plot. Stefan is an awful awful person and should die and stuff, but we’ve only seen one person overcome compulsion and 1) Bill wasn’t a real character and 2) the writers have failed to explain the how. Was Bill actually compelled or did Damon only believe he compelled him? I ask this because the rules of compulsion seem to involve not being aware that you were compelled. If you don’t know then how can you overcome it. This actually places the odds in Stefan’s favor a bit because he clearly knows he was compelled. That said, we still have no idea how compulsion works, except to say that it removes choice from the person being compelled.

    Anyway, I’m not sure what the writers are trying to do by having Elena, and to a lesser degree Lexi (because she is an entirely different can of worms), say that Stefan can do this if he loves her or if he simply chooses to feel something. We’ve gotten the loopholes before, but even by Katherine can drink vervain and leave when Klaus tells her too standards, Stefan would still need Klaus to tell him to feel something or to turn it on. It’s weird to frame his inability to fight someone else’s imposed will, by supernatural forces, on his emotions as a failure on his part or a slight against the love he feels for Elena.

    Now I read someone’s review and they said that Lexi seems to genuinely believe that Stefan can turn his emotions on despite the compulsion, so they agree with her. My problems with that are 1) Lexi is crazy and also awful 2) she used torture on Stefan in order to make him behave in the way she thought was best (in a way that meant he wasn’t killing anyone, so yes it was for the best, but she had no basis for what she wanted to turn Stefan into) so her perspective is shaky at best and altogether, in my opinion, unreliable. 3) Stefan tried to get Damon to stay in “The Dinner Party” and he promised he would change, even though that was probably a lie, he was clearly feeling something, so Lexi’s belief that Stefan had “turned it off” was an assumption.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that the writers are failing to have the characters deal with the fact that Stefan is crazy, like full-on round the bend, he’s not getting better without hundreds of years of therapy or death crazy, and are instead about to make this into a story about the power of Stelena’s love. Which…no. It’s gross to me for more reasons than the fact that I don’t like Stelena.

    At this point, maybe the story will turn around, the plan seems to be for Elena and Damon to do exactly what Lexi did, only this time it will succeed (like it has “succeeded” in the past) because 1) Stefan genuinely loves them and they actually know him (never mind the fact that Elena hasn’t got a clue about anything except for the fact that Stefan loves her) and 2) the show will get cancelled or go off the air before Stefan wants to be his sociopathic serial killing self again.

    Am I making sense? I hope so. It’s late/early and I’m sick and this made a lot of sense when I was thinking it.

    • I have to think about the rest but I have a question about the following part

      Stefan would still need Klaus to tell him to feel something or to turn it on.

      Why would Stefan need Klaus to tell him to turn it on? Klaus didn’t tell Stefan to turn it off for ALL TIME. He simply told him told turn it off. At that moment, Klaus was mostly concerned with getting Stefan to hurt Elena right then. I don’t think he was planning long-term. When Damon brought Katherine vervain while Klaus had her, he said there is always a loophole to every compulsion. He also asked her if Klaus had instructed her to do as he says “until the end of time”.

      For example, let’s say that a vampire compels someone to turn off a light switch. The way I understand compulsion, that doesn’t mean that the person can’t choose to turn it on latter. It just means that he had to turn it off at the moment the vampire commanded him to. Their room is not going to be dark forever. Am I making sense?

      I think that the *way* Stefan became a “Ripper” now is different but other than that, nothing is diff. Basically, the journey/route was diff but the destination is the same. He is basically where he was all those other times Lexi tortured him. He doesn’t have to overcome compulsion to turn it on. He just has to be made to or want to like in the past.

      • Why would Stefan need Klaus to tell him to turn it on? Klaus didn’t tell Stefan to turn it off for ALL TIME. He simply told him told turn it off. At that moment, Klaus was mostly concerned with getting Stefan to hurt Elena right then. I don’t think he was planning long-term. When Damon brought Katherine vervain while Klaus had her, he said there is always a loophole to every compulsion. He also asked her if Klaus had instructed her to do as he says “until the end of time”.

        Katherine still needed Klaus to tell her to leave the room before she was able to leave it though. It’s not like Katherine realized that Klaus never told her to stay in the room forever and then was able to leave it. Which makes Damon’s point somewhat moot. Also, previously Klaus compelled Stefan to do whatever he said without question.

        This is another reason I feel the writers need to explain how compulsion actually effects the mind because if there’s always a loophole then arguably, humans wouldn’t need to be turned to remember what they were compelled to do unless they were compelled to forget for forever.

        I don’t trust Lexi’s perspective on whether Stefan’s switch was off every time she decided to torture him. Especially not the first time. Especially since, the show has still failed to have Stefan say anything about whether that was the case in the past and his explanation of his actions in the flashbacks during “The Dinner Party” contradict the idea of his switch being off, despite Lexi’s speech, because he frames his reaction and his desire for revenge in emotional terms. Stefan also spent the first four episodes and the two months prior with his switch on, which means he was fully capable of feeling at the time, but more or less okay with what he was doing.

        I also feel that, if he doesn’t have to overcome compulsion then there was no point in show him being compelled, which wouldn’t be the first time the show did something like that, but it would be a particularly egregious error on the part of the writers, since Klaus could have just compelled him to attack Elena again and argued that he couldn’t fight that. The fact that they made a point of having Klaus compel him to “turn it off” is important. At least in how I’m looking at the story.

        The fact that no one is talking about the fact that he was compelled, which is the way the show generally deals with compulsion after the fact, it disappears, is something else that I find weird. Elena stopped thinking of him as being compelled, despite asking what Klaus did to Stefan, almost immediately after she was attacked. That’s understandable she shouldn’t feel sorry for him after he attacked her or even care about the circumstances, but it’s not like that lead to her letting him go, so her short term memory loss on events she witnessed, on events she told him to fight, is weird.

        And I get what you’re saying about the light-switch and the dark room, but there’s something about choice coming in later that doesn’t jive with how the show has portrayed compulsion, even in Katherine’s “he didn’t tell you to do as he says for all eternity” situation. Klaus never had to tell Katherine she could leave and maybe she wouldn’t have to do a thing he said for as long as she had vervain but she would still be trapped in that room. So I can see where Stefan has room to breathe when it comes to his compulsion, but how is that room to breathe defined? Klaus didn’t say “turn it off and keep it off” but he also didn’t say “turn it off to do this.” Which makes me think that the intention of the storyline is to have Stefan fight off compulsion in addition to making the choice to feel (even though we’ve had, on several occasions in the past, seen Stefan capable and willing and even happy at the prospect of killing with his switch on, but the show is probably not going to answer those questions).

        • Katherine still needed Klaus to tell her to leave the room before she was able to leave it though.

          Damon specifically asked Katherine if Klaus had asked her to stay in the apt until he said she could leave. She couldn’t answer but from that, I assumed that if Klaus hadn’t added that second part, she could have left after a while on her own.

          But I agree that they really need to make the rules about compulsion clearer

          I don’t trust Lexi’s perspective on whether Stefan’s switch was off every time she decided to torture him.

          I don’t even know what a switch is. I was going by the definition that switch=conscience because in The Dinner Party flashback Lexi asks Stefan if he feels any guilt about the murders he committed. He said no. I think that was her definition of the “switch”. But then, Stefan displayed zero remorse when he was killing innocent people with Klaus when his switch was supposedly on. So I guess, Lexi didn’t know what she was talking about and Stefan always had strong sociopathic tendencies and she interpreted that as him having his switch off?? The turning off of emotion stuff makes zero sense. Even in this ep, Stefan was angry. Damon was OTT emotional when his switch was supposedly off. What in the actual fuck is even happening?

          The fact that no one is talking about the fact that he was compelled, which is the way the show generally deals with compulsion after the fact, it disappears, is something else that I find weird. Elena stopped thinking of him as being compelled, despite asking what Klaus did to Stefan, almost immediately after she was attacked.

          I don’t know what to make of this because Elena also forgot that Klaus was the reason that Stefan couldn’t come back. She seems to disregard any and all obstacles in Stefan’s way. Plus, Lexi, who must know what is going on, treated this like a regular Ripper rehab stint which led me to believe that this wasn’t about breaking compulsion. She would have mentioned the extra complication of compulsion, right? I can’t with this whole show. I guess we will find out when someone kills or “kills” Klaus. Hopefully, Damon will bring up the compulsion in the next ep. A lot of the info regarding compulsion tends to come through him.

          I also feel that, if he doesn’t have to overcome compulsion then there was no point in show him being compelled

          To make him less culpable?

          • Damon specifically asked Katherine if Klaus had asked her to stay in the apt until he said she could leave. She couldn’t answer but from that, I assumed that if Klaus hadn’t added that second part, she could have left after a while on her own.

            I thought that was her having a lightbulb moment and Nina just played it awkwardly. I don’t think the producers had thought about the loophole of compulsion at the time they wrote Klaus compelling Katherine to stay in the room, so I don’t think Klaus specified.

          • Damon specifically asked Katherine if Klaus had asked her to stay in the apt until he said she could leave. She couldn’t answer but from that, I assumed that if Klaus hadn’t added that second part, she could have left after a while on her own.

            But she was still waiting for Klaus to die so she could leave the apartment in “As I Lay Dying.”

            To make him less culpable?

            If they compelled him to make his less culpable and are now having the characters forget about the compulsion in order to make him more responsible, not for the murders he’s committed, but for his emotions, specifically his love for Elena and his “friendships,” then I have no clue what the writers are doing because that makes no sense.

            • But she was still waiting for Klaus to die so she could leave the apartment in “As I Lay Dying.”

              I assumed that Klaus did he add the second part Damon asked about because when Elijah compelled Katherine into staying in the tomb, he told her not to exit “until I say so”. He didn’t just tell her not to exit. He added the second part. I thought that is why Damon asked the question. He wanted to know if Klaus had told her to stay there until she was told otherwise. Honestly, we shouldn’t be trying so hard to figure out the mythology of the show. How much choice Stefan has should have been made explicit during this ep. It is ridiculous that Damon hasn’t asked Stefan the same questions about compulsion that he asked Katherine last season. Even if Elena didn’t tell him what she saw, he should have suspected that compulsion is involved.

              If they compelled him to make his less culpable and are now having the characters forget about the compulsion in order to make him more responsible, not for the murders he’s committed, but for his emotions, specifically his love for Elena and his “friendships,” then I have no clue what the writers are doing because that makes no sense.

              I don’t understand how a story about Stefan going off the deep end to save his brother became all about how he has to prove his love for Elena. None of this makes sense to me. I honestly hadn’t thought of the possibility that he was under compulsion to keep the switch off until you mentioned it today. I thought he had a choice because Elena, who saw him being compelled, is treating him like he has a choice and his brother (a vampire) is not asking any questions. I think I have to sleep on it. The whole thing is brain breaking. Why is Elena ignoring that and ok with torturing him when she saw it with her own eyes? Why doesn’t she at least ask a couple of questions about compulsion? None of this is penetrating my brain. Idk if it is because I haven’t had a full night sleep in a while or what.

              • I think the reason why Elena’s acting like Stefan has a choice is because of Bill being able to withstand compulsion. So she’s just irritatingly going hard on Stefan with no idea just how Bill managed to build up a resistance. I think that’s why she’s so adamant about his “choice.”

      • Why would Stefan need Klaus to tell him to turn it on? Klaus didn’t tell Stefan to turn it off for ALL TIME.

        Ugh. I think I hate compulsion, you guys. Why the heck has it become such a huge part of Stefan’s storylie?

        I don’t understand why Klaus would only compel Stefan for a moment, considering the problems Stefan was posing with his feelings “on.” It’s not like Klaus plans on letting him go any time soon, so it would make sense if he wanted to compel him for as long as possible. Also…does Klaus not know about these loopholes, that he apparently has to be super duper specific?

        • Also…does Klaus not know about these loopholes, that he apparently has to be super duper specific?

          My impression is that vampire/vampire compulsion has to be super specific because it is all mechanical. The vampires being compelled are aware that someone is controlling them and are aware of their desire to not do what they are being compelled to do. Vampire/human compulsion doesn’t have to be super specific because it has a huge emotional component – it creates trust or a bond. That is why I got fixated on Klaus not telling Stefan to keep it off. Another reason is that if Stefan really can’t make ANY decisions right now, this is the worst story line ever told through any medium in all human history.

        • Here’s the thing, say Klaus does understand loopholes and doesn’t care because, for added benefit, he’s compelled Stefan to do whatever he says without question, so he’s got him. Plus, the writers seem to have forgotten that Stefan agreed to spend ten years with the guy, but I digress.

          Since none of the characters are focused on breaking the compulsion or even acknowledging that the best way to do that is by killing Klaus, what do they think is going to happen once Stefan starts feeling again, against all hope, miracle of miracles and all that hoopla?

          He’ll just be Klaus’s personal hitman who feels things.

          Now you might say, if he’s feeling things he’s overcome the compulsion, but since the show is ignoring the compulsion, isn’t even having Elena said, “he didn’t stop telling you to feel things forever” (even though that would piss me off because Elena having random insight into the supernatural without ever really opening a book, is annoying) then how is he going to overcome the compulsion of doing anything Klaus tells him to do ever? He resisted killing Elena, but if Klaus told him to kill some randoms would he be able to do that? Probably not.

    • I guess what I’m trying to say is that the writers are failing to have the characters deal with the fact that Stefan is crazy, like full-on round the bend, he’s not getting better without hundreds of years of therapy or death crazy, and are instead about to make this into a story about the power of Stelena’s love.

      How do you think they should deal with his crazy? If they all fully admit and accept how crazy he is, how does that not lead to them murdering him? To me, all the characters are varying degrees of crazy. The show has killed off any characters who would have called out any of them on their craziness (Zach, Grams, Uncle John, Jenna, even Pearl). The Salvatores are the worst. Sometimes when Damon reacts to things, I am not sure if he is reacting to things as they are now or if he is replaying something that happened in the past in his head. It is beyond clear now that Stefan is crazy if the fact that he stalked the girl who looks exactly like his rapist/abuser wasn’t enough of a clue. The writers have dug themselves into such a deep hole with these characters in an effort to “shock” us that I don’t know how anyone can reasonably deal with them. I can’t picture it. I mean, other than killing them. The least the writers could have done is have Stefan display some guilt/shame when he was killing all those people with Klaus pre-compulsion.

      • Well they probably should murder him. Or commit to the idea that he’s a villain and probably shouldn’t be around everyday, if he must live, and too the writers, he must live. They’ve set up the show in a way that makes keeping Stefan and Damon alive paramount, but also utterly stupid. It requires 90% of the characters to ignore them almost entirely.

        It is beyond clear now that Stefan is crazy if the fact that he stalked the girl who looks exactly like his rapist/abuser wasn’t enough of a clue.

        And they’ve never had him or Elena discuss this at all, except for him saying that she’s nothing like Katherine…except for the fact that she looks exactly like Katherine.

        They do tend to either kill the more rational characters or take them into the crazy train fold.

    • 2) The one time we’ve been shown someone overcoming compulsion we’re told it has to do with Bill’s essential humanity (humanity, here meaning something essentially good…which glosses over all the bad people can do, but that is irrelevant at the moment)

      I actually interpreted that to mean that one needed to be a human to do it. I thought he said, “It takes a certain…human…quality,” while looking disdainfully at Damon.

      This whole idea of torturing Stefan because they believe he can withstand something no other vampire has abel to withstand (because Bill said one needed to be human but the show is already crapping all over it) is quite gross. It’s being framed like Elena is justified for doing this because she “believes” in him or because Stefan’s so “good,” but it’s really ridiculous. He’s being held to a standard that 1) was created by Lexi and 2) no other vampire heretofore has ever been able to achieve. I wish Stefan would go off and cuss them out, asking them why they think he specifically can do this. I feel like this is another way of “shaping” him like Lexi did. Like, first he was supposed to resist his urges, wants, and basically his personality because Lexi believed he could be “good,” that the way he was was wrong and he didn’t really want to be that way, and now we have Elena (and probably Damon) adding on another baseless expectation, which is that he has it in him to resist an Original’s compulsion and “come back.” This actually makes me angry on Stefan’s behalf.

      • I feel like this is another way of “shaping” him like Lexi did. Like, first he was supposed to resist his urges, wants, and basically his personality because Lexi believed he could be “good,” that the way he was was wrong and he didn’t really want to be that way, and now we have Elena (and probably Damon) adding on another baseless expectation, which is that he has it in him to resist an Original’s compulsion and “come back.” This actually makes me angry on Stefan’s behalf.

        And this is why I keep trying to find reasons for why this is not about compulsion and just about turning his switch on again. I hope the only compulsion he is under is protecting Elena.

        If it is about compulsion, the show is being extra gross for no reason. Why are they even doing this so close after the Bill/Caroline “aversion therapy”. I thought everyone learned a valuable lesson from that or something. If Delena are aware that he is actively under compulsion, they have the option to leave him locked up until they find a way to kill Klaus. I guess the show hasn’t had enough torture porn.

        • For real, why don’t they just find a way to kill Klaus?! Did they learn nothing from Elijah compelling Katherine to stay in the tomb? They’re not even doing a “whichever happens first” situation. They’re just primarily torturing Stefan while ignoring Klaus.

          I don’t know why it was gross in Caroline’s case, they even punished her father for it by having Damon chew on him and Liz shoot at him, and yet it’s a completely valid approach for Stefan. Wtf?

          • Not only that but, like Olu mentioned, what are they saying about the people (Caroline, Andie) who haven’t been able to overcome compulsion. First Bill says that overcoming compulsion is a human thing which implies that it is easier for humans than for vampires. And now, they are going to have a vampire overcome it?? So I guess Caroline was just weak then and deserved it?? Seriously, I can’t even contemplate this for too long. I am about to have a stroke.

              • The funniest part of all this is that while Stefan was bouncing between walls trying to not kill Elena as per Klaus’ compulsion, my mind immediately went to Slater. Elijah compelled Slater to kill *himself*. Slater couldn’t resist for more than a sec or so. Stefan resisted killing *someone else* for waaaay longer. Stefan’s love for Elena is greater than Slater’s self-preservation instinct. Lol. I guess, deep down Slater wanted to commit suicide and Elijah provided a convenient excuse.

        • Klaus also compelled him to obey his every command “from now on” I believe he said. So I don’t know. The writers dug themselves into a deep hole for reasons they don’t seem willing to follow through on.

          If Delena are aware that he is actively under compulsion, they have the option to leave him locked up until they find a way to kill Klaus.

          Does Damon even know? Did Elena tell him? I know she didn’t tell him on-screen, but he’s reacting like Elena’s reacting, like Stefan chose to turn off his switch. Why was she even there to see him being compelled?

      • This whole idea of torturing Stefan because they believe he can withstand something no other vampire has abel to withstand (because Bill said one needed to be human but the show is already crapping all over it) is quite gross. It’s being framed like Elena is justified for doing this because she “believes” in him or because Stefan’s so “good,” but it’s really ridiculous. He’s being held to a standard that 1) was created by Lexi and 2) no other vampire heretofore has ever been able to achieve. I wish Stefan would go off and cuss them out, asking them why they think he specifically can do this. I feel like this is another way of “shaping” him like Lexi did. Like, first he was supposed to resist his urges, wants, and basically his personality because Lexi believed he could be “good,” that the way he was was wrong and he didn’t really want to be that way, and now we have Elena (and probably Damon) adding on another baseless expectation, which is that he has it in him to resist an Original’s compulsion and “come back.” This actually makes me angry on Stefan’s behalf.

        I just want Stefan (or hell even Damon, who also has this highly idealized view of Stefan, but at least his view is partially based on who Stefan was as a human) to tell Elena that the Stefan she believes in is the one Lexi created and that she has no idea who he really is or what he really wants and that if she goes through with the torture it may “work” but that a part of him would hate her for it. It won’t happen, but I just want it to be acknowledged within the canon that what they’re doing is actually wrong. Stefan is crazy and should die and maybe torture can enter into it, but not torture to make him “better” especially when “better” has proven to be a lie and not even a lie entirely of Stefan’s making.

    • Am I making sense? I hope so. It’s late/early and I’m sick and this made a lot of sense when I was thinking it.

      I seriously can’t make sense of this story line right now. I convinced myself that it was only about turning his switch on and that they (Delena) were dealing with Stefan’s crazy right now or coming face to face with it.

      instead about to make this into a story about the power of Stelena’s love. Which…no. It’s gross to me for more reasons than the fact that I don’t like Stelena.

      They have been doing this since the premier. Stefan killed Andie and then called Elena on her bd. I guess they are going to always make things about a ship but why thrown in compulsion? Stefan couldn’t beat compulsion when he bit into Elena. How is their love going to beat compulsion now? The show is incomprehensible or I am stupid.

  24. I can’t stop thinking about this, so I have to ask your opinions.

    What about the compulsion that rewrites memory? If we’re meant to believe that humans can given the right motivation overcome compulsion, how would one regain memories that had been taken from them?

    Are Matt and Jeremy going to suddenly remember what their last moments with Vicki were like? Is Matt going to have the actual memory of Caroline attacking him or Katherine compelling him? Does Tyler remember that Vicki tried to feed from him and Damon and Stefan were there when it happened? Is Elena going to remember that Damon told her he loved her? Are any of the girls, besides Amy Bradley for obvious reasons, that Caroline has compelled going to remember that they actually like Tyler or Matt?

    Probably not. Which is why they need to explain compulsion because despite the differences in disposition of compelled vampires and compelled humans, they haven’t given us much else in terms of how much needs to be said or in what way and what power the compelled actually have, if any power at all.

    • What about the compulsion that rewrites memory?

      Fuck. I can’t really think about this right now but his made me that Alaric should have remembered Isobel’s compulsion when she died. So his heart is not free of her now?? Is he grieving all over again for his wife as well as Jenna right now? Is that why his alcoholism has gotten waaay worse?

      • It’s never been established a vampire’s death makes a human remember they were compelled. If that was the case, several people should have exposed vampires a long time ago. I don’t even think a vamp’s death would immediately stop the human from doing what they were compelled to do. Like Andie being in love with Damon. If Damon died, she should logically keep being in love with and either eventually move on like a sincerely love or eventually let it go from being questioned by her friends about why she loved the guy so much. I think the only reason Katherine knew to immediately leave the tomb upon Elijah’s death was because she was a vamp and so knew she had been compelled.

    • Why doesn’t Matt remember the compulsions he has been through right now? He died without any magical or vampire blood intervention. I always thought that it was the death itself and not the turning into a vampire part that helped people remember their compulsions. I wonder if a human can’t remember the compulsion even if the vampire dies permanently. I guess that would explain Alaric and Isobel. Maybe death only helps in vampire/vampire compulsions.

      Guys, this is season 3 and we are still trying to figure this stuff out.

    • They pretty much only invented the loophole to compulsion as well as the ability to withstand compulsion in order to service the vampires. It’s not even that the rules work differently for humans. They just haven’t thought it through.

      In season 1, I felt that if a strong vamp like Damon compelled someone, they’d never get the memory unless they were compelled to. Like Jeremy and Matt and Tyler. I felt that it was a kind of mechanism to protect the supernatural from being discovered by regular folk. And then you had your weak vampires like Stefan where all you had to do was push the person hard enough, and they’d remember, ala Vicky. And in Vicky’s case, it seemed her remembering overrode Stefan compelling her to forget. Byt that I mean, in the brief instance where she remembered, she didn’t seem to be working with two different sets of memories.

  25. Do you guys remember when Stefan said that Caroline reminded him of Lexi? Do you guys think the writers remember? If so, I am scared for Caroline….again. Or she is about to go all Lexi on Tyler’s ass. DNW! I have so many fears when it comes to this show.

    • Lmao! I completely forgot about that! I should go back and rewatch Stefan in season 1 and season 2 and see how many of the things he said are now completely disturbing.

      I think the writers do remember. And I think they think the comparison is still valid.

      • I should go back and rewatch Stefan in season 1 and season 2 and see how many of the things he said are now completely disturbing.

        Rewatching s1 right now and half the stuff that comes out of Stefan’s mouth is legit scary because of what’s been revealed/retconned into s3. The entire blood!arc takes on this new creepy “maybe Lexi would have been smarter and less crazy to put him down” meaning because he seriously says, “I have never been this hungry before” and you wonder what that means to him and how he means it. Plus he’s pretty good at lying without lying, evading the truth until it can’t be denied (like his “years and years” response to Vicki after she asked him about the last time he drank human blood).

  26. Why hasn’t Bonnie been able to communicate with Grams all this time? Is it because Grams didn’t want to talk to her? Grams said that the spirits spoke to her back in season one. That is one thing I never understood. Is it only the witches who died a particularly violent/horrible death who can travel back and forth? If so, Grams could only come when something went wrong with the barrier between the two worlds? Why didn’t Bonnie use some of Grams’ personal items to try to find a connection?

    • The producers weren’t interested in telling that particular story. At least Charmed gave a halfass response saying the girls couldn’t contact Prue because she was still adjusting.

      • It’s like the writers realized that the stories they managed to half-communicate for the most part needed to be told, but they weren’t thinking about them before or about how the delay was a pretty big deal. Almost everyone’s storyline this season, is what should have been happening in s2. Season two should have been about recovering from season one, with maybe the introduction of a villain, other than Katherine, in the run down to the season finale.

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