Katherine died! My ship is having issues! And some other stuff happened! I’m kind of happy right now.

Did you see how they faked us out, making us think Elena’s plan actually worked?

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233 thoughts on “Katherine died! My ship is having issues! And some other stuff happened! I’m kind of happy right now.

    • I want her to be dead!!! I’m tired of her. It wouldn’t have come to this if she hadn’t come back, or maybe if she’d come back with her own goals. Of course I realize yet another female character died and they also severely defanged her before they killed her, and she went out because of something idiotic (did she miss the part where Mikael kills vampires?), but she’s gone.

        • Her stupid basically. She killed Glori for no good reason other than Stefan needed to be rescued. I didn’t want her dead. I just wanted her to go away so I didn’t have to deal with her anymore or until the writers could give her another nefarious plan. After she killed Gloria, I didn’t care how she went away.

          I should clarify that when I said “it wouldn’t have come to this,” I meant in terms of how I feel about her. Not saying she deserved it for being where she was.

  1. I can’t deal. Gloria is dead. Vicki is gone but Anna gets to stay. Now Katherine might be dead. Jerm is an asshole. Plus, Elena is slowly sucking the life out of me.

    • I don’t know why Anna is here other than as fodder for Jeremy and Jeremy/Bonnie. Does she want anything? At least Vicky managed to hatch out her own goal. I remember how she was killed to further Jeremy’s story, and now they’ve brought her back for his story/the ship.

      • What’s sad is, despite being killed to further Jeremy’s storyline, the show didn’t do anything with it other than have Jeremy try and kill himself. That could have easily been accomplished with having her have to leave because of the device.

        • I don’t think that would work because the theme was Jeremy losing people because of death. So I don’t think Anna walking away would have produced the same effect.

          • You’re right. I’m just disgruntled about how the writers killed her and Pearl off and now the only way they can think to bring her back is for romantic reasons. John’s not even around for her to be mad at someone.

          • I know this is waaay late but why did they need to kill Pearl too? They could have followed the theme of Jeremy losing people without killing her. I guess they were following the theme of History Repeating. One Gilbert tried to kill her and another finished the job. But it didn’t have to be that way. Anna’s death would have served both themes. Anna’s death was brought on by a Gilbert partly because she was in love with a another Gilbert just like her mom.

            Ah memories of season one.

            Someone just posted a super long explanation for all the invitation shenanigans over at TWOP. I wouldn’t even have bothered with something like that in season one. The show just made intuitive sense.

  2. The sad thing about Elena keeping Bonnie out of it to protect Bonnie from Stefan is I don’t actually think that Bonnie or Stefan are in any immediate danger from each other, mostly because I want an epic showdown, but also because they haven’t even interacted yet. It wouldn’t make sense for either of them to kill each other at this point & Bonnie can protect herself.

    I already said it on Tumblr, but the more Stefan and Elena say about their relationship the more I want to set that relationship on fire and never see it again. I was overjoyed when Stefan called her pathetic. Hopefully, the writers will keep playing with Stefan thinking she’s being ridiculous.

    • I agree. There would be no buildup to Stefan just attacking Bonnie or vice-versa. Not when Stefan is so in control and not when Bonnie has not made any previous remarks of disapproving of what he’s doing and wanting him dead.

  3. As usual, I zoned out or moved away from the screen a lot so I will have to rewatch online. So I have a question. Did they explain how “siring” works?

    • It makes a vampire want to be loyal to or impress his or her maker (because the maker’s blood made them), but it’s so very rare that Tyler will probably be the only vampire we ever see with it.

      • I call bullshit. They say it’s rare so it only has to happen with Tyler and not with anyone else (Caroline – and thank goodness for that.)

        • I kind of get what they are trying to do. I think they are kind of recreating the relationship Tyler had with his dad??? It is a cool way to use the supernatural as a metaphor for Tyler’s issues with authority. I just wish it was an exclusively Hybrid thing and that Damon didn’t know what was happening. Why are they changing vampire mythology at this late stage?

          • Why are they changing vampire mythology at this late stage?

            Sometimes I think this show would be easier to deal with if we didn’t ask any questions.

        • Oh it’s definitely bullshit and completely unnecessary. They could have just used the fact that Tyler is a douche to explain the situation.

          • For real. But naw, like Damon and Stefan, there’s an excuse for his bad attitude/behavior. Caroline though? Caroline’s just a neurotic, annoying freak. Bonnie’s just a judgy bitch. Elena’s just an idiot. Katherine’s just selfish and devious. And Rebekah’s just a brat who gets vicious when a man doesn’t give her her way. They’re just like that. The supernatural dudes? There’s an excuse.

            • What’s weird is that the explanation the writers give strips away layers from both the male and the female characters. Like there’s more to Caroline than her neuroses and Bonnie’s got valid issues and Elena doesn’t have to be stupid and Katherine’s protecting herself and yeah that’s selfish but no one ever protects her, and Rebekah…we don’t enough about at this point. And there should be more to Stefan’s behavior than “his emotions are off” or “he’s not himself” because there’s history for there to be more than him having excuses (because skittles is a sociopath) . The same with Damon. I’d pay to see someone on the show call Damon emotional or Stefan a fraud. Let’s boil them down as well.

              • I agree completely. As for Rebekah, there really is nothing there. I didn’t escape my attention when Damon called her a female Klaus. He defined her by her brother. Because she’s really nothing but Klaus’ sister. What does she want?

            • UUUUGGGGGHHHH!!!!! I hadn’t thought of that. Caroline never got to turn off her switch or anything. No one is “haunting” Bonnie. Even when she could see dead witches, that wasn’t used to explain her behavior or given much focus. Rebekah has no “addictions”

  4. Elena wants Stefan all to herself. I really want Bonnie to want to kill Stefan. I hope that’s the reason she’s keeping them apart.

    Your ship is in trouble Alta!

    Katherine is dead? okay. she could just be dessicated.

  5. Is it my imagination or do all Tyler and Caroline ever do is have a minor verbal argument, kiss, and/or fuck? Because I’m told that their a relationship on a television show that is subverting gender norms and empowering Caroline, but they both feel like blank slates when they’re together.

    • Matt can let his sister go, but Jeremy can’t let the girl who was more into him alone form more than a few days?

      The writers are really trying to shove a wadge into this.

      • It is not just Jeremy. Matt can let his sister go because she is a danger to others but Elena can’t let Stefan go even though he is actively killing people. Elena is ~strong~ and ~heroic~. She works out so it must be so.

        • I’m actually starting to get upset because, as in character as it was for Matt to prioritize the lives of others over Vicki’s since Vicki is dead, she wasn’t (in a better version of this story) a danger to anyone. Like I love the Matt/Vicki stuff that happened, I hate that once again Elena’s life was prioritized over Vicki’s. And that this time, Vicki wasn’t in the wrong.

          • Exactly. Vicki was doing the right thing. It was everyone else who was totally ok with people dying by the thousands (or God only knows how many). In a better show, she would be an anti-hero, the hero or a constant antagonist. Like the law enforcement figure or the somewhat “good” guy in a show about killers or criminals.

            • In my preferred scenario, Matt would, at the very least, be unwilling to stop thinking about Vicki, even if he didn’t agree with her, he’d be unwilling to be the one to send her away forever, even if it meant that Elena got to live. To me, Matt would be the easiest for Vicki to convince and then everyone would pick and choose their sides depending on what they thought would be best for the world/group/Elena/etc.

              Instead we have this situation where no one questions anything and since no one talks on this show or is allowed to dissent, we as viewers have no idea how much Matt knows about what Elena being alive means. I mean in terms of what’s going on with Klaus. He did say he couldn’t let her kill Tyler, but that seemed less about Tyler and more about getting to the point of Elena. I don’t know. The more I think about the more upset I get about how they’ve handled both Matt and Vicki.

      • Matt can let his sister go, but Jeremy can’t let the girl who was more into him alone form more than a few days?

        It’s really ridiculous when one thinks about what Matt lost versus what Jeremy lost when he lost Anna. Because Matt should probably be in Jeremy’s position at this point.

  6. Could they make it anymore clear that Rebekah is evil!Caroline? “Why are you being so nice to me? You should be mean.” Ok, show. We got it. Also, why are the “evil” versions of these girls more powerful? Or rather, why are the powerful ones “evil”? Ugh, and also, Vicky is my hero.

  7. I can’t believe that Vicki is right and the show has basically spelled out all the ways Vicki is right and no one is even taking the moment to consider that she is right.

    • Lol. The only people trying to stop Klaus with an actual plan (for wtvr reason) were Katherine and Vicky. I am confused as to why Elena or Damon are the protagonists. All Damon did was grope Elena, clean his house and try his tired routine on Rebekah.

      • I don’t even count Katherine’s plan as good, though she is the only other person trying to stop Klaus, because if she’d thought about it she probably would have gotten to the point where what Mikael drinks would have occurred to her. What else could he drink to produce the same level of fear in Klaus? Who knows what effect vampire blood has on the strength of a vampire? I’m still trying to figure out why vampires haven’t banded together to kill Mikael or just started drinking from each other in the same way? (Like why can’t Mikael be killed?) But Vicki had a plan that was actually about stopping Klaus and righting the balance. There was a degree of selfishness there, but ultimately her gain was minor in comparison to what she would right.

        clean his house

        It’s sorta funny how picky he was about the mess.

        • Who knows what effect vampire blood has on the strength of a vampire? I’m still trying to figure out why vampires haven’t banded together to kill Mikael or just started drinking from each other in the same way?

          Drinking human blood gives vampires more strength than drinking animal blood. Not only that but Stefan wasn’t able to do compulsion properly on animal blood. Damon was also able to do that weird fog/crow thing early on that the writers forgot about. I wonder if drinking vampire blood gives vampires more….magical powers. If he is an Original, maybe drinking vampire blood gives him extra powers that enables him to kill other Originals without the daggers. But that can’t be it. Why wouldn’t the other Originals do the same thing and start hunting other vampires?

          • The thing is that vampire blood is nothing more than human blood, so I can see why there wouldn’t be anything extra special about it. if they do say there’s something special, then they need to give a thorough explanation.

            I wonder if they’re going to go more into how siring works or if they’ll just leave it at, “it’s very rare.” Will they write Tyler as wanting more info about it? Caroline maybe?

            • The thing is that vampire blood is nothing more than human blood, so I can see why there wouldn’t be anything extra special about it. if they do say there’s something special, then they need to give a thorough explanation.

              Have they said that it’s nothing more than human blood? I only ask because there’s a difference between the amount of time someone spends dead between the transformations on this show and there’s little to no time for burial or blood loss. And there must be something special about vampire blood, if we’re meant to assume that the transformation does something to the human blood the vampire previously had, since it’s capable of healing and or causing the transformation. Plus, Mikael’s disgust at drinking human blood won’t make sense unless there’s something special about it…which they would be making up on the spot, but there must be some reason for it that can somehow explain Mikael’s preference, Klaus’s fear, the reason that he was entombed and not killed, but also the reason that other vampires don’t do it. The final thing is important to me because why wouldn’t the Originals just drink the blood of other vampires, if that was all that was stopping them from defeating this guy? Also, what’s with his determination? He had cops(?) with him last time. What is the scope of his power? I’m not sure the answer they’ll give us will be worth it. I think, but it’s been awhile since I’ve read them, that vampires who drank from other vampires in the vampire chronicles were granted increased strength but were considered abominations. In the YA series Blue Bloods, it makes a vampire insane to drink the blood from another vampire, but there’s all this stuff about actually possessing their identity once that happens.

              (Slightly off-topic but, Caroline was dead and in a hospital but no one noticed that she’d died? What about rounds? What about the ekg machine?)

              I wonder if they’re going to go more into how siring works or if they’ll just leave it at, “it’s very rare.” Will they write Tyler as wanting more info about it? Caroline maybe?

              It would be interesting if intent on the part of the sire makes a difference when it comes to the effect of siring. I’m not sure if the show is going to go for anything more than “it’s rare” though, but it would suggest that the form of blind loyalty that Tyler is showing isn’t something that vampires typically want.

              Or contact? Because Klaus was the one who gave Tyler his first taste of human blood as well as being the one who turned him and every other vampire we’ve seen, to my recollection, with the exception of Damon (who it can be suggested has a peculiar loyalty to Katherine and Stefan), has come upon blood (Stefan defending himself from his father and injuring him, Caroline drinking from the blood bag, Vicki essentially finishing Logan Fell off after Damon killed him, Katherine was in control of her death the entire way) without the direction of their maker. Maybe they’ll make that connection. I hope someone is curious about it.

              • Have they said that it’s nothing more than human blood?

                I was assuming because the blood that any vamp feeds another is huma blood, whether it’s theirs or from the many people they’ve drank from.

                since it’s capable of healing and or causing the transformation.

                Isn’t that the human blood though? That’s how/why Damon kept extolling its virtues to Stefan in season 1, saying that it gave him all these powers.

                Maybe they’ll go into vampire blood since they’ve gone into Hybrid and doppelganger blood. But right now, I don’t know what would qualify as strictly vampire blood. Do they produce their own or do they get it solely from humans? If vamps do produce blood, then I see what you mean.

                (Slightly off-topic but, Caroline was dead and in a hospital but no one noticed that she’d died? What about rounds? What about the ekg machine?)

                Lmao.

                Instead of being rare, I wish they’d said that siring is something only an Original can do. Of course that would mean Damon wouldn’t know about it, but I wouldn’t mind learning that from Klaus since, you know, he’s the one who can do it. Or if they said a vamp had to be incredibly old to develop that ability.

  8. Oh God. Do you guys know what Mason appearing means? It means that Damon was thinking about him. Probably feeling ~guilty~ because his switch is turned on. I CAN’T. I think I am going to cry.

    Also, how can Matt NEVER think of his sister again.

    • No I don’t think Damon was thinking about him remember what Vicki said to Matt about being able to be around without him having to think about her. I think that is happening now. Because even though Jer is ass and I am pissed and want Bonnie to break up with him. When Anna asked him why was he thinking about her he said he didn’t think he was I don’t think he was. Plus before in Lockwood mansion when they did the hand thing he couldn’t feel her now he can. Just like Matt could feel Vicki after he did that spell. So something else is going on now.

      I laughed so hard at Katherine dying two seconds before it happened I said he is going to kill her than he did and I just started laughing. So I guess that is the death that people were talking about.

      • Wait, he couldn’t feel her at the Lockwood mansion? I thought he could. Oops.

        You’re right. Matt’s little ritual is most likely allowing the ghosts to just come through.

        • Yeah, I don’t think so either. Mikael would have to stake her, burn her or decapitate her. We have seen vampires heal from extreme physical injuries when they are given enough human blood. We have seen what happens to vampires when they don’t have enough blood – they desiccate. I suppose they could say that Mikael has special teeth or powers that can kill vampires by draining them.

  9. That hadn’t even occurred to me. That’s actually depressingly hilarious.

    Also, how can Matt NEVER think of his sister again.

    He can’t. That’s why I prefer my version of events. I can’t imagine Matt being okay with never thinking of Vicki. His reaction during the House Guest, is proof enough that he thinks about her often. So I’m not getting what the show means. Then again, Jeremy did something similar and he can still see Anna, so I’ve decided that Matt is still going to be able to see Vicki or at the very least communicate with her.

    • I think what Bonnie did is reverse the spell that gave her power to come and go as she pleases and to be able to physically touch things. But it will go back to the way it was before he did the spell. IDK this show. But it now seems all the other ghost have the ability that Vicki had.

  10. The best part of the ep was that both KG and IS were looking good. In IS’s case, I mean his face won’t give me nightmares tonight.

  11. I wonder how they’re going to make Mikael dangerous to the humans? Because he only wants to drink vamp blood and for some reason Klaus decided to give himself extra special, extra strong vamp blood. Still, what danger is he going to present to the humans?

    In fact, unless he’s older the Originals, which seems doubtful, why is Klaus afraid of him?

    • I wonder how they’re going to make Mikael dangerous to the humans? Because he only wants to drink vamp blood and for some reason Klaus decided to give himself extra special, extra strong vamp blood. Still, what danger is he going to present to the humans?

      I don’t think he will specifically target humans but I also think that he doesn’t value human life. He called the dead guy that Katherine was trying to feed him “it”. Idk if he is just waaay too old or what. Anyway, he will be a danger to Caroline, Tyler, Rebekah, Stefan and Damon. That includes about half of the “group”. Every human in the “group” will want to protect one or all of them. Maybe Mikael won’t be ok with the humans getting in the way.

      • I guess that’s how it’s going to go. Damon’s plan is to get rid of Klaus, not Klaus, Stefan, Rebekah, Caroline, Tyler and himself. Not that he cares about anyone in that group except for Stefan and himself. Ugh. I don’t know what to do with where this storyline will go. They don’t have enough humans for this.

        • Lulz. It just occurred to me that Rebekah is probably cannon fodder for Mikael. I mean, he *has* to kill an Original so that we *know* that he can later kill Klaus, right (except not because Klaus is a Hybrid)? <- TVD logic.

          Remember when we were speculating that the Forbes torture chamber was demonstrated on Caroline so that it can be used on Stefan later?

          • Rebekah has always been canon fodder, which is why they’ve never explored her relationship with Stefan and never will. Klaus can leave her behind. Damon and Stefan can dismiss her. She’s not meant to be anything except a future dead body. It makes me so sad even though I don’t have any feelings on her. Unless they bring Elijah back to kill him once again, which I wouldn’t be against if it meant one less female character had to die just so the writers could prove a point.

            • They couldn’t even bring in another male Original to be killed off permanently by Mikael. Elijah gets to come back but not Rebekah. Yay!

    • Also, obviously, human life doesn’t matter. How many people have died in this town now? You would think that the FBI or some other national law enforcement agency would get involved because of all the dead and missing people in such a short time.

      • They’d at least expect that this town has a serial killer on their hands, but the Council controls both the law and the media in the town, so unless someone who lives in town chose to call the FBI there isn’t a reason for them to come in. This is also a KW/JP production. No one cares enough.

        • You would think that the people who live in this *small* town would know about all the residents who have died or gone missing. Plus, the Council wouldn’t be able to coverup any missing persons reports from surrounding areas like wtvr university/college Damon got those girls from in season one. You would think that some of the people in town would be seriously concerned to put it mildly. People were FREAKING OUT when there was *one* kidnapping & rape in my neighborhood last year. Does the Council intimidate everyone into silence? Oy! This Show.

          At this point, I am fanwanking that a lot of the residents know what is going on but don’t know what to do about it or are too afraid to do anything. But then, why would they not leave?

        • The same thing happened on Buffy, of course. But it was easier for me to take because, at least, someone was working on the problem. It is really hard for me imagine that NO ONE cares.

  12. What did you guys actually *like* about this ep? I think I have lost the ability to think rationally about this show. It is all just – HAAAATE

    • Despite all of my issues with how the writers have handled the Matt half of the Matt/Vicki plot all of their scenes made me smile/cry/happy because they were more than what I thought the show would give them. This storyline should have occurred sooner. Ugh, but I love them. I really do.

      Also, all of the shade that Stefan threw at Elena was wonderful. I still wish he hadn’t been compelled and had chosen to turn his feelings off, but I can’t help but be fascinated by the fact that he plays into her desire to see some humanity in him (following her lead when it comes to entering her personal space at the end of the episode, giving her that look when she falls off the bleachers, and then saying all that stuff about her choosing to save him) only to come back around and remind her of what’s up (calling her pathetic, asking her if she’s jealous of Rebekah, etc.).

      I’m way more into him using her feelings for him to destroy those feelings then the outward displays of physical dominance, like when he grabbed her arm in the hall. I wasn’t into that at all.

    • Also, Bonnie’s response to Jeremy was perfection. He was half-assed about trying to make the situation work with her, even though I do think he wants to.

      • At first I thought she was going to be meek about it with the “you loved them both,” but then Anna showed up and she threw the line about helping Matt contact his dead sister, and I.loved.it.

    • I liked the Matt/Vicki stuff
      Alaric still being mad at Damon works for me
      Stefan calling Elena pathetic was good.
      Damon I’m finding him less annoying lately but I think it’s because he hasn’t been around not as much screentime.
      Bonnie of coarse but that’s ususally 99.9% of the time I love her attitude with Jer and her attitude with Matt she was done with these boys doing stupid things.

    • I loved Bonnie’s reaction to Jeremy/Anna. I liked what this meant/means for Bonnie/Jeremy. I loved Vicky working at the behest of the Original witch (they are both right in their thinking). A vampire was actually doing a witch’s bidding! Loved Vicky/Matt.

      And weirdly enough? I liked Elena. I might need to rewatch, but in a lot of her scenes I saw the potential of what she could be if she could exist outside of the Salvatores.

      Also, for the first time Alaric/Elena gave me feelings. I think I’ve found a guy I can ship Elena with.

      • And weirdly enough? I liked Elena. I might need to rewatch, but in a lot of her scenes I saw the potential of what she could be if she could exist outside of the Salvatores.

        Yes. Those three are actually dragging each other down. They need to be saved from each other. Elena most of all.

        • OMG that’s what it is why I’m finding everyone(by everyone I mean the big three) less annoying. Because they are not as wrapped up in each other as they were last scene especially towards the end of last season. Elena is actually hanging with her friends. I mean granted she is still obessed with Stefan but I’m not as annoyed.

      • Also, for the first time Alaric/Elena gave me feelings. I think I’ve found a guy I can ship Elena with.

        LOL. Secretly, I ship everyone/everyone but I def don’t want to see some pairings on the screen. This is one I wouldn’t mind though.

        • Secretly, I ship everyone/everyone but I def don’t want to see some pairings on the screen.

          Same, for the most part. I’m pretty sure this show couldn’t handle most of the potential pairings that the characters have to offer, so I’m glad that most of them haven’t been attempted.

          Alaric/Elena could work. Depending on how it started…considering he’s slept with her mother/surrogate mother figure.

          • considering he’s slept with her mother/surrogate mother figure.

            *Sigh.* Not dampening my mood though. I should find that Alaric/Elena fic and link it to you guys.

          • considering he’s slept with her mother/surrogate mother figure.

            Still waaay better than Delena. I still kinda ship Alaric/Death though. I did like it when Damon was trying to get Alaric to be his friend again. I loved how he tried to talk about Alaric’s torched car but Alaric just didn’t give a damn about what Damon was saying. Oh, poor wittle Damon lost his only friend. He needs wuv. I was laughing at every Damon/Alaric scene. So much second embarrassment though. Damn. He doesn’t want to be your friend (for the next ep or two), Damon.

              • Damon was trying harder than he ever tries with Elena. With Elena he just tells her how she should forgive him or how she’s already forgiven him.

                • Alaric is Damon’s one true love. LOL

                  OMG! It would be funny if Damon and Elena were really in love with Alaric and Bonnie respectively. They both showed more consideration to their bffs than they ever do to each other or to anyone else. I mean, when is the last time Elena kept anyone else “out of it” for their own safety? Didn’t she send Caroline after Jonas during his Mystic Grill rampage? Plus, she asked for Caroline’s help here even if Caroline wasn’t helping directly. She also doesn’t care about putting Damon (Rebekah could have killed him) or Alaric in danger either. And now Alaric is the first person that Damon is making a real effort with. Just saying. Belena & Dalaric might be where it’s at.

    • I think he saw her. Love that he didn’t bother to ask how it’s possible that Matt can see her though. Neither did Bonnie. Or Matt. Or Vicky.

      I don’t think it would have made sense to ask Rebekah since she was invested in keeping Stefan alive.

      • The more I think about this ghost stuff the more confusing it gets. so Jeremy could see Matt and Vicki talking even though he wasn’t thinking about her, does that mean that Jeremy can see ghost if a person is just thinking about said ghost. And could Matt have seen Anna if he was around Jeremy when he was thinking about her.

  13. So, I just watched the ep. I feel like I don’t understand anything that is going on?

    A few questions:

    1. Why is Jeremy suddenly back in Mystic Falls? Was this explained? Did Katherine let him go? Why would she?

    2. Why didn’t Katherine try to feed Mikael Jeremy’s blood? Why was she even bothering with trying to feed him rats and bats?

    3. Why is Rebekah still in Mystic Falls. She clearly wasn’t happy about her brother ‘leaving’ her there. Why doesn’t she leave? And why does she give a crap about Tyler, competing with Caroline and high-school? Is Rebekah a character?

    4. So Jeremy and Anna can only touch now? I thought they first touched in 3×04 at the Lockwood mansion. (I don’t understand this Jeremy/Anna SL at all, btw. I guess it’s just for the shippers?)

    5. What is up with Tyler? Why is this SL happening? Did we need another character to turn into a human-killing vampire, err a ‘hybrid’?
    This scene of him feeding on the girl made me think of 2×02 and Caroline killing the carnival worker. Her killing a human was kind of a big deal (well, as far as this show goes, anyway). She was broken up about it. Somehow I think this won’t be a big deal in this SL. It will be only a big deal because of what it might mean to Forwood. “TVD – where murder is merely a potential deal-breaker relationship-wise.” Welcome to the Stelena and Delena world! Oh and I’d like to draw to attention to the wonderful line “The only thing I like about me is you.” Sigh.

    6. This whole Ripper SL is a mess, obviously. Just one thing, though. Why is it not treated as something serious? By both the characters and the writers? Mostly it’s just Stefan being mean and kind of cranky. But, on the other hand, why are the most unimportant things framed as super, super serious? Like Stefan calling Elena a human blood bag. Very evil, indeed. (Yeah, I know, because of Stelena and the triangle.) It’s all wrong.

    Basically, the only part in this ep that I liked was Vicki. And some of the Vicki/Matt scenes. And, weirdly, Damon’s obsession with cleanliness. That never fails to amuse me.
    I hate to be so negative. Wish I had more positive things to say.

    • 1, 2 and 3. We don’t know. 1 and 2 really annoy me because they put two characters together solely for plot purposes. Are they writing a story with actual characters so simply moving pieces on a game board? They didn’t bother to write a Jeremy/Katherine interaction at all. This kind of thing happens so often that I think it is because they really don’t know how that would go. They don’t know how Jeremy and Katherine would talk to each other or get along or not get along. They don’t know what would possess Katherine to let Jeremy go unscathed so they have it happen offscreen.

      4. I am starting to think that Vicky was the Original Witch’s decoy plan. Just like her telling everyone that killing Elena was the way to make Hybrids. Maybe she counted on Bonnie helping Matt with Vicky and knew that the consequences would work in her favor. I wonder if Anna is part of that. I got suspicious when the show acknowledged that what Ann is saying makes no sense via Bonnie. Bonnie actually asked Jeremy how Anna know all that she knows since she is supposed to be alone.

      I hate to be so negative. Wish I had more positive things to say.

      Let’s form a TVD bitterness society

      • Thanks for answering my questions.

        1, 2 and 3. We don’t know.

        Wow, Just wow. I watched the ep early in the morning before going to work. So I thought I might have missed the part where this (Jeremy being suddenly back in MF) was explained.

        They don’t know how Jeremy and Katherine would talk to each other or get along or not get along.

        Yes, isn’t it sad? This whole doppelgänger thing could have been so interesting if really explored. Btw, isn’t it crazy that it’s S3 and we still don’t know what this Petrova doppelgänger thing really is?

        TVD bitterness society sounds good. 🙂

    • I have no idea how Jeremy got back to Mystic Falls. I guess he drove and Katherine was supposed to walk back?

      I’m glad Katherine didn’t try to feed Jeremy to Mikael. I’m sick of seeing him get hurt. She did say she’d tried feeding him a human on top of the rats.

      Rebekah is staying in MF because Klaus told her to. Why is she listening to Klaus? I have no idea.

      Oh and I’d like to draw to attention to the wonderful line “The only thing I like about me is you.”

      That line was so ridiculous and unnecessary.

      I hate how this whole Ripper thing is basically some cutesy story where Stefan is pushing people down and telling them to get out of his seat.

      • I’m glad Katherine didn’t try to feed Jeremy to Mikael. I’m sick of seeing him get hurt.

        Agreed! But it makes no sense that Katherine didn’t do this. Oh well, it’s not as if this was the biggest plot contrivance in the ep …

        I hate how this whole Ripper thing is basically some cutesy story where Stefan is pushing people down and telling them to get out of his seat.

        Yes. These sudden shifts in tone are so jarring. “The Birthday” was really, really dark imo. Then in “The Hybrid” the tone shifted to … I don’t even know what, that ep was so bizarre. But the Ripper SL felt less serious and more like “LOL Stefan is cranky because he has to hang out with Klaus”. Then, in “The End of the Affair”, things seemed to get darker/more serious again but, again, that lasted only for 1 ep because in 3×04 Klaus, Rebekah and Stefan are suddenly bantering in a boutique?! The tone is all over the place. It’s as if these writers can’t make up their minds. And that’s incredibly frustrating.

        I guess I’ve reached a point where I just want the writers to go through with one version of this SL.

  14. Maid!Damon being out in full force and him being sent to “seduce” Rebekah (that was such a stereotypically female character role. Plus, he was sent to “seduce” Klaus too in an earlier ep.) reminded me of a theory I discussed with someone a while back. Basically, Damon reminded us of a traditional tv/fiction lady. (sidenote: Man, I used to have so many theories about this show. I just found an old pm that I sent to someone about Klaus. Apparently, he reminded me of Donald Trump or how I imagine Donald Trump to be. I completely forgot about that) Anyway, this is what we had. Mostly copying and pasting what we had back then. This discussion starts in the middle of a discussion about something else so it might feel disjointed. Honestly, I can’t even remember what our rationale was for most of this stuff. Wtvr. Here it is

    Honestly, that character [Damon] would make a million times more sense if he were female, lol. And he’s also physically weaker and younger than Katherine, which I do think is important to consider. And it seems like he thinks his only worth is his body and his charm and the only way he can hold onto an “upright” life is by latching on to a stable “man” [Elena or Katherine I guess. I can’t remember]–who’s “better” than him in both their opinions and constantly threatens to leave him.

    I think his relationship with his body/sexuality is really interesting in general. He usually uses his sexuality as a weapon (he flirts to get info, he is always intimidating people via personal space weirdness and double entendres, he seduced Bree into doing witch stuff for him, etc)…which is so stereotypically feminine AND something that relatively *powerless* people do. It’s strange to me, in general, how powerless Damon acts. It seems as though he should be all powerful! He is old, strong, rich, white and manly. Yet he seems to feel as though he has no power at all? What’s up with that?

    Also, it does seem like he was *silenced* a lot as a human being. That’s what I think is so interesting about the flashbacks w/r/t that character. His father pretends he can’t hear/see him, his brother speaks *for* him *(says he left “on principle”). He encourages *Stefan* to pursue Katherine and only chases her himself once Stefan refuses (when they’re playing with the football). Katherine ignores Damon asking her to the Founder’s Ball and answers yes to Stefan instead. At the ball, a random Lockwood gives a toast and again Damon can’t say anything in his own defense. After the ball, Katherine literally compels Damon to shut up. Damon feels he can’t tell their father about Katherine’s secret but Stefan ignores his arguments for doing so as though they don’t even exist. Their father says he caught on to Katherine because of what *Stefan* had said (in the study) not from any of Damon’s behavior. It’s *Stefan* that their father vervains–as though he doesn’t even know about Damon’s relationship with Katherine. After she’s vervained, he holds Damon against the wall and literally tells him to shut up. When Damon goes after Katherine (post her getting trapped), Stefan again keeps hushing him and trying to hold him back. He is shot from behind (unile Stefan) so he couldn try to fight back or even see the the shooter let alone cry out. In her memory of the murder, Katherine speaks to *Stefan’s* corpse as though he can hear but ignores Damon’s corpse completely. Post-death, Damon says he saw the church burned but, apparently, he was powerless to even interfere let alone stop it. Damon requests to not be turned but Stefan ignores it as though he didn’t say anything. And apparently, Damon saw Emily burned too but wasn’t able to interfere there either.

    As a vampire, too, there are a lot of instances in wich either Damon tries to communicate but is stopped by circumstances (Ex: when he tries to have heart to heart with Elena in Founder’s Day but it’s really Katherine). He tries to keep himself form communicating anything about himself anyway (ex: when Stefan wants to talk about their feelings for Katherine on the football field and Damon literally runs away). He tries to shut up people who re trying to communicate for him (ex: when Rose is trying to explain what he’s feeling w/r/t being a vampire to Elena and tells her to stop talking). And he tries to convince everyone that he doesn’t even have anything to communicate anyway (ex: the whole stupid “feelings” thing). I think it’s really interesting that he’s shut up/muzzled so often.

    I guess I’m thinking of all this in terms of objectification. He is, apparently, only able to communicate by using sex or violence (or both)–so either he’s an object of desire OR an object of hatred/fear OR he’s apparently non-existent/unheard/ignored/silenced.

    Btw, Idk how much any of this applies anymore. It seems like Damon is actually trying to straightup/normally communicate with people *some* of the time this season. He is apologizing to Alaric. Plus, he didn’t compel away Elena’s memory or lash out violently when he went into Elena’s bedroom last time. Either that or I have lost to the ability to think about the show too much so who even knows. I just thought I would post it because of this ep.

    • I was talking with a fandom friend and she suggested that Damon is actually not a Salvatore, but an illegitimate child that the Salvatores took in, thinking they couldn’t have children. Only Damon doesn’t know that. So he’s, in his mind, in the position of eldest son and oldest brother, but his father doesn’t actually see him as his and treats Stefan as the favored son. I like this idea, too. Though I think, he’s less inclined to explaining his behavior because he already knows his motivations are wrong (where as Stefan is always capable of justifying himself in his own mind, despite being wrong) so he avoids allowing others to explore them, but he’s quite capable of communicating with others. He just chooses not to.

      I also think his tendency to have his overtures fall on death or incorrect ears has to do with…the writers posing him as being denied love. He’s never loving people who want his love. Or something. I don’t know. The characterization on the show is not inconsistent enough to say there aren’t patterns of behavior, but the inconsistencies make it hard to tie all of the characters’s motivations and qualms together into something coherent.

      • I was talking with a fandom friend and she suggested that Damon is actually not a Salvatore, but an illegitimate child that the Salvatores took in, thinking they couldn’t have children. Only Damon doesn’t know that. So he’s, in his mind, in the position of eldest son and oldest brother, but his father doesn’t actually see him as his and treats Stefan as the favored son.

        OMG! I proposed the same theory to someone but she got pissed. She doesn’t want the show pushing this idea of parents rejecting their non-biological children. Klaus is enough as far as she was concerned.

        • In the context of the show, it makes a kind of sense in both instances. Especially when we have Elena as an example against that. Anyway, it makes a lot of sense for this to be the case when it comes to Damon, who doesn’t look like Stefan or his father. Unlike Klaus who at least took after his mother (or should have if they’re going to explain Rebekah.)

          • Ikr! Plus, I keep thinking that there is something else wrong with Damon (as far as how society viewed him back in 1864). Other than leaving the war, I mean. That is the only way I can make sense of the character. He doesn’t seem to embody the privilege he has like Elijah and Klaus do or even Stefan does. I am not sure that I worded that correctly.

            • I think he doesn’t embody the privilege he has in the same way that they do. He doesn’t wear it as naturally, I guess? He lacks trust (that’s not the right word) in his ability to wield it. That maybe be what’s going on. He’s not unafraid to wield it or abuse it, but he can sometimes not do it. I don’t know what I’m saying anymore.

              • I know EXACTLY what you are trying to say. It is so hard to articulate though. Idk. I may have to rewatch eps to try and make this clearer but I REALLY don’t want to so…Maybe the show will get better and I will want to?? LOL

    • This theory is really interesting, and I definitely see the case for it. A case could also be made for the possibility that Damon is unintentionally (maybe?) continuing the cycle by doing what was done to him to others: silencing Caroline and Andie, continuously ignoring Elena and taking her choices away from her, etc).

  15. You guys, the ratings for this show are going UP. What? Is this season really all that better than last season? What changed in the last couple of eps? Is it all the online publicity that is helping them out? I know that TVD fans on ONTD are relentless. Plus, there is all that tumblr activity.

    • This season is less…irritating than last season because not everyone’s putting their lives aside for Elena, but the characters this season are less focused. No one has said a word about Stefan or Klaus. The only ones trying to do something are Elena/Damon/Katherine. It’s like Elena and Damon are the only ones that can say something either positive or negative about the Stefan situation. No one’s trying to solve the ghost situation. Not Bonnie. Not Jeremy.

      It’s like none of the problems the producers have set up are meant to be solved. The point of the ghost story isn’t to try to figure out why/how/for how long, the point of Stefan being a Rippah isn’t that he needs to be stopped/killed, the point of Klaus isn’t that he needs to be killed.

      Whereas the characters were hyper-focused last season to the point of annoyance, this season they seem to be super chill about every.last.thing.

      • It’s like none of the problems the producers have set up are meant to be solved.

        I agree. I think they want to kind of use these things to tell the characters’ stories or something. For example, Mayor/Tyler=Klaus/Tyler and Rebekah as a rival to Caroline. A lot of it feels like a retread of season one and early season 2 but things are playing out in a much more extreme way this time. Idk. Anyway, the issue I have with all of this is that they did not give these characters compelling reasons for *not* wanting to solve these problems or thinking that there is nothing they can do about it. They have already set these things up as HUGE problems. I don’t know why they are just ignoring that. Elena even said in this ep that she doesn’t trust Stefan to not hurt Bonnie. WTF?! Does Bonnie feel safe around Stefan? Does she realize that he is a potential threat to her? Does she even care that he is killing people? Why does she care more about stopping Vicki? She didn’t even know what Vicki was going to do. She *knew* that Stefan was up to no good.

        It is ok if they are not hyper focused but the show needs to give us solid reasons for that. They have to give us solid reasons for why the characters are ignoring potential threats – not only to others but also to themselves.

        • I completely agree. It’s not just that they’re not doing anything, it’s that I don’t know the reason for it. Last season, not only were they hyper-focused, I knew why (they loved Elena, blah, blah, blah).

  16. Am I the only one wondering if we’re dealing with two different witches/sets of witches? I only ask because why would a witch curse Klaus and then give him all the information for how to set himself free? Even with all the failsafes in place it doesn’t make a lot of sense from a strategy point of view.

    • Am I the only one wondering if we’re dealing with two different witches/sets of witches?

      I don’t think that it was the Original Witch who told Klaus how to break the curse. Until the show proves me otherwise (which it will because we are so not in the same wavelength), I think it was another witch who probably got that info from the Original Witch’s Grimoire or by communicating with the spirit of the Original Witch. The other witch probably figured most of how to break the curse because it sort of makes intuitive sense (werewolf and vampire sacrifice + moonstone). The dead by then Original Witch probably kept pushing the idea that the doppelganger had to die

    • Do you think that the doppelgangers were a consequence of the original spell? Or do you think that they were created by other witches at the same time?

      • I think they were the consequence of the original spell. Katherine said in Katerina that Petrova blood was spilled when Klaus was cursed. That was the beginning of the doppelgänger.

        That can’t be the first time a doppel was created though. A doppel is a magical entity/phenomenon like Elijah said, so I wonder what other spells/curses would involve creating a doppelgänger. The show will never answer me because it would be too interesting.

  17. Yep, still awake and pulling an all-nighter because my mother going back to school means that I am back at school.

    Who voted with Elena in the first question? Not attacking. Just wondering 1) Because I need a distraction from this horrible assignment 2) Elena confounds me. Help.

    • Elena saying believing in Stefan makes her strong just continues her unrealism. This girl seems to believe that down is up. JP says she’s realistic and knows the realities of the world, but she seems completely detached from both.

      • Lol. Alta, you voted for that?

        Btw, I love how that they undermine their lead in every single way possible. Her plans don’t work. Other people keep telling her she is weak or pathetic and are pretty much proven right. I mean, Matt was able to let his *sister* go after she tried to murder *one* person. They also keep beating us over the head with the fact that the world would be a better place if she were dead. Also, I just remembered that Elena would be physically fit right now if she hadn’t let Damon talk her out of being a cheerleader. Do these people even realize what they wrote? The Salvatores literally made Elena weaker. Was that intentional?

        • Lol, Jeremy made Bonnie weaker too in an indirect way. Caroline is in trouble, you guys. It is only a matter of time before her love for Tyler makes her physically weak.

          • How has Jeremy made Bonnie weak? You’re making me think of something: Elena became unrealistic and Caroline was always crying with Matt (he was always lecturing her). Dating Jeremy didn’t make Bonnie more in need of saving. Even when her nose was bleeding, he couldn’t “fix” her problem. She tried to fix it herself with the Luka thing. And then she became stronger with the power of the 100 witches. As for her emotions, she was already strong emotionally. The producers teetered very closely to the Black Woman is emotionally tough trope. When Bonnie came back after Sheila died, she was angry and unbending. What they overdue with Caroline is what they rarely show with Bonnie: which is her showing her hurt and her vulnerability. And she showed her vulnerability with Jeremy (and I mean vulnerability in terms of her powers as well as her romantic feelings).

            My fandom friend was talking about something yesterday that was depressing me. She said this is twice now that the guy Bonnie has been actively interested in has brushed her aside. There was Ben who called her desperate and was only faking, and now there’s Jeremy. Now of course the Jeremy thing has more meat which is probably what makes it worse. The thing is that the show knows how to have Jeremy prioritize Bonnie. They wrote them like that all last season. He put her first and looked at her like she was precious and amazing and everything good. So what the heck is happening? Can she only be looked at like that if there isn’t another woman? Like what the hell?

            Meanwhile Tyler’s telling Caroline that she’s all that’s good about him and Stefan’s saying he’ll always protect Elena. I mean both things are gag-worthy and Jeremy’s “You think I’m gonna leave you alone?” in 2.18 was less so, but why the heck is it being taken back now? What the heck is happening?

            • How has Jeremy made Bonnie weak?

              I was just making an off-handed remark about how Bonnie lost her connection to the dead witches for him. I meant that she had to give up something huge to keep him alive. And now he is annoying me.

              Meanwhile Tyler’s telling Caroline that she’s all that’s good about him and Stefan’s saying he’ll always protect Elena.

              None of those things are good things. I mean, Tyler is probably cheating on her now as much as Jeremy is cheating on Bonnie. It is just that Jeremy’s story has a head start. Plus, Caroline’s dad rejected her. Bonnie’s dad is invisible but that is a separate issue (to be rectified soon??). As for Stelena, Ugh! I can’t. There is nothing good about that. Him “protecting” her is what is ruining everything. Honestly, I feel so disgusted by everything ToD that it is even hard for me articulate all the things that are wrong with them. They are just gross and looking at them is gross.

              • When I wrote weak, I meant that literally. As in, physically. As in, their bodies can’t do the things they could before like Elena not being fit now. These girls have to work at getting that back.

              • Oh I know those things aren’t good. But the producers think they are. They think it’s romantic that Tyler and Stefan and even Damon say stuff like that.They think those two are worth that. I’m looking at this strictly from what the producers think they’re showing and not how it’s actually coming off. I don’t want Jeremy to start saying stuff like that to Bonnie. As recently as last night I was grateful the producers don’t see Bonnie/Jeremy as “epic.” That means chances are good they won’t give Bonnie amnesia in regards to being mad at Jeremy they way they did Caroline and frequently do to Elena.

                What they were saying to each other last season was perfect.I’m just not understanding how easy it is for Jeremy to get confused while Caroline’s getting wedding imagery and Elena has two people in her cult. And the producers think both of those things are awesome.

                I see what you mean about Jeremy weakening Bonnie though that is something I can handle since Bonnie needs to work to get to that level of power instead of just tapping into other people’s.

                • I guess my issue is that I am not seeing this in terms of shipping. What are these girls’ individual journeys? Their arcs? Outside their relationships, I mean. It seems like they have none. Stefan and Tyler are dealing with the effects that Klaus has on them. Jeremy has been dealing with ghosts. Damon is the only one sort of dealing with the whole Klaus threat via Kat. Alaric has his new epiphany. Elena only got fit because of *Stefan*. Bonnie’s story so far is about Jeremy and Matt. Caroline’s story is about Tyler. Meanwhile, both Tyler and Jeremy are hanging out with Rebekah and Anna respectively.

                  They think it’s romantic that Tyler and Stefan and even Damon say stuff like that.They think those two are worth that

                  Do they? Because until late last season, it seemed like they thought Caroline deserved to be raped, abused and put down without having any voice or reaction about it. I know they *say* stuff in the media but what they say often has *nothing* to do with what is onscreen. Maybe other showrunners are more forthcoming and honest but the TVD showrunners seem to be all about spin.

                  But idk. I don’t see the current incarnation of Caroline like most other people do. I am weird like that. I was reading the mini drama that was happening in the comment section of the Price Peterson recap w/r/t his comments about Bonnie. He basically doesn’t think Bonnie is a real character or something but he thinks Caroline is awesome. In fact, he hated Caroline in season one and only likes her now. In my head, Caroline is becoming less and less real. It is kind of disturbing to me how more people like her now that she is essentially a plastic doll. Like the only way a woman can be appreciated or admired is if she is devoid of any visible defects and if she never complains. Idk. I have weird feelings about all of this.

                  • Because until late last season, it seemed like they thought Caroline deserved to be raped, abused and put down without having any voice or reaction about it.

                    They seem to to us. But to them that’s just opportunities to showcase Caroline. Or something. That’s what I’m talking about when I say I’m looking at this from what they think they’re writing and not what they’re actually writing.

                    In terms of Bonnie, I’m looking at this from the shipping perspective. I’m not going to rant about her individual arc yet because I know that has technically not started, based on the spoilers. That’s why I’m not too quick to say that all she’s got going is her relationship. That wasn’t the case last season and I’m hoping the spoilers mean that won’t always be the case. She’s the only one of the girls where being in a relationship has not always been her story. I’m with her dealing with this Jeremy stuff as long as that’s not all she’s doing for the rest of the season. Consequently, Jeremy’s dealing with the ghosts this time around but last season he wasn’t dealing with anything outside of his relationship with Bonnie.

                    I wouldn’t say Tyler’s dealing with the Klaus thing yet. He hasn’t done much with it outside of saying he doesn’t have a master. And he’s not in the next episode. I have no idea if he’ll be in episode 8. I think it’s too soon to say how much this story will be about him though I agree Caroline’s story will probably be about Tyler.

                    I quit his recaps in the middle of last season. It’s like his tune doesn’t change no matter what the characters do. Never so much as a reluctant praise of his most hated or a reluctant criticism of his favorites.

                  • “Like the only way a woman can be appreciated or admired is if she is devoid of any visible defects and if she never complains.”

                    Yeah… I’ve been so angry that Caroline doesn’t get angry… at her dad for torturing her, or Damon’s abuse in season one. (As others have said, one shove and a “you suck” is not sufficient payback!) Or at Matt for always putting her down. I think you’re right…the writers felt that Caroline deserved all that. So twisted. And now she’s just a victim, and supposedly more likeable because she’s not assertive. She’s only allowed to get a little angry over a new vampire cheerleader showing her up and trying to steal her boyfriend? That’s lame. The writers also allow her to be a little angry at/chastise Tyler for being sired/loyal to Klaus because her priority has to be her boyfriend… and helping him. So how come Bonnie and everyone was so hard on Caroline after she got vamped, which wasn’t her fault… but Tyler’s getting off pretty easily so far, even though he’s making less effort to control his new vampire urges?

                    I was also pissed off at the dialogue about her refusing to stay overnight after sex… and how that led to Rebekah showing up to tempt him to feed on & presumably kill a (black, of course!) girl. Oh, if only Caroline had stayed/done what Tyler wanted, instead of acting so independent! She could’ve “saved” him! At least, that’s what the writing seems to imply.

                    • I guess I just hate this double-standard pattern the show has…where male characters can get away with pretty much any awful behaviour (especially treating women badly), but female characters aren’t let off the hook by the writers, when they screw up. Even if their crimes are far less severe, they’ll be punished more than the guys.

                      Instead of Tyler being accountable for his decision to kill this girl, the show will frame Rebekah as the evil temptress, and Caroline as the one who has to be loyal and selfless no matter what he does. If she turned her back on him, *she’d* be the Bad Guy/Bad Girlfriend in this scenario. It wouldn’t be Tyler’s fault, at least, as far as the writers are concerned. It’s more R’s fault for showing up and C’s fault for leaving him alone, which is messed up.

                    • So how come Bonnie and everyone was so hard on Caroline after she got vamped, which wasn’t her fault… but Tyler’s getting off pretty easily so far, even though he’s making less effort to control his new vampire urges?

                      I’d say that’s due to two things. 1) When Caroline became a vampire, the show was still relatively good as it was early season 2. So you have Bonnie still being totally realistic about things. 2)Tyler being a Hybrid? Totally a relationship thing, imo. By that I mean I think they’re going to focus on how it affects Caroline for the most part. You saw how she was talking about he’s acting like a guy she would never date. Just like how Stefan being a Ripper is a relationship thing because you mostly see Elena reacting to it.

                      It’s like the biggest offense of these two things (Hybrid and Ripper) is that they’re putting a chink in the relationship.

                      Oh, if only Caroline had stayed/done what Tyler wanted, instead of acting so independent! She could’ve “saved” him! At least, that’s what the writing seems to imply.

                      That’s what a review I read seemed to be saying. The person flat out said that as Tyler’s girlfriend, it should be her holding his hand and showing him the ropes, not Rebekah.

                    • songspin, Thank You. You articulated all the issues I had with this. You are right about them framing it so that Tyler has the least amount of responsibility in all this. It is kind of like how Stefan is not responsible because Klaus compelled him to turn it off (except not really because he didn’t say *keep* it off). Rebekah tempted him and he is in a vulnerable state so it is all her fault. Even though, he just promised Caroline that he would not be an ass. Lol

                      The person flat out said that as Tyler’s girlfriend, it should be her holding his hand and showing him the ropes, not Rebekah.

                      People think this because this is how the show framed it but I don’t buy it. The show made it seem like NO ONE but Rebekah has been helping or feeding Tyler since his transformation. My issue with this isn’t so much that Caroline *should* have done this but that she *would* have done this. I feel like they deliberately did not show Caroline doing anything for Tyler even though she must have. It just seems OOC for her to not feed him, for example. This is the girl who took it upon herself to put vervain in Matt’s drinks before he knew about vampires. She also threw a birthday party for Elena and so on. She is responsible and hyper-organized. It seems like they either ignored that part of her personality or had it happen offscreen to prop Tyler. Actually, when I think about it, she (or Carol – from hospital??) *must* have fed him because it has been 2 days since his transformation. The blood bag Rebekah gave him can’t be the only meal he has had. So why was the only feeding talked about or shown on screen related to Rebekah?? Why was there no off-handed remark by *anyone* that he could have taken a blood bag from such and such source or that he should be eating from his own stash? Because that would put some responsibility on Tyle. That is why. Ugh! Idk. It seems like they threw Caroline under the bus in more ways than one. 1) By making it seem like she is responsible for his impending infidelity 2) By making her seem callous/uncaring (not so much but what they did show but what they *didn’t* show) in order to justify Tyler turning to Rebekah

                    • You know, you have a point. It would have been totally Caroline to have sat Tyler down and explain the rules, drilling it into him even. Why didn’t we get that? She just believed him when he said it was going to be a great year, and left it at that?

                    • So how come Bonnie and everyone was so hard on Caroline after she got vamped, which wasn’t her fault… but Tyler’s getting off pretty easily so far, even though he’s making less effort to control his new vampire urges?

                      To be fair, Caroline’s transformation came after the first “in group” transformation went horribly – Vicky. The Salvatores wanted to kill her because of that experience. I think that Damon even referenced Vicky as a reason to kill Caroline at some point. Plus, Bonnie was pretty anti-vampire back then because of her own bad experiences with them. Her change in attitude on that has a lot to do with Caroline I would say. So Tyler is benefiting from how well Caroline’s transformation went as well as his association with Caroline. Remember when Damon wanted to leave him where Klaus had Forwood chained up but Caroline wasn’t having it?

                    • I just want to thank everyone for responding so kindly to my comment… not much to add to your great discussion, except to say I agree with you that the show’s only looking at things from a relationship/boyfriend issues angle, and therefore trivializing the seriousness of Tyler’s (and Stefan’s) situation.

                      And that’s a very good point, that the writers are making Caroline act out of character (she *would* be showing Tyler the ropes/supervising every detail.. not that I’m saying it should be her job to hold his hand, but that’s her previously established personality) just so they can tell a story about infidelity and make it “her fault”. Arrgh. It’s ridiculous that he won’t be held accountable for not having enough self-control. But I guess it’s still pretty common in real life for women to be blamed/blame themselves if a guy cheats.

                      It bugs me that they’re even trying to make this kind of metaphor out of a vampire killing people. It’s like equating a vampire’s bloodlust/instinct to kill to homosexuality, in the Caroline-gets-tortured-by-her-intolerant-dad scene. It’s *okay* to be “intolerant” of a vampire who goes around killing people! (Although, of course, Caroline was controlling her vamp instincts and didn’t deserve to be tortured, and I don’t condone torture as a solution in any case) … But it’s *not* okay to be intolerant of gay people…who are not hurting anyone by being gay!

                      The two things aren’t comparable… and neither is a guy cheating on his girlfriend comparable to a guy killing a girl! I know Rebekah’s there as The Other Woman/Temptress, in this infidelity story, but really, it still doesn’t work for me. Tyler, who was so concerned with not killing anyone before and after becoming a werewolf, is now showing barely any hesitation (and probably very little future remorse) over killing a girl. This is like a corruption of morality story, a betrayal of self and one’s values, a giving in to cruelty just because he feels powerful and immortal. It’s The Picture Of Dorian Gray, sorta. Dorian Gray’s issues weren’t trivialized and over-simplified to “he cheated on his girlfriend”… I mean, it’s *bigger* than that, y’know? Not that I’m saying it’s no big deal to cheat, don’t get me wrong. But becoming a cold-blooded killer, losing your integrity/soul/humanity/compassion for others… that might be a little more serious, and worth addressing! I hate how the show’s so focused on romantic relationships/juvenile soap-opera, and using violence while downplaying what violence *is* and what it really *means*.

                      Oops, I guess I had a lot more rant left in me after all. 😉 Although I’m sorry if I went off on a tangent there.

                • I’m just not understanding how easy it is for Jeremy to get confused while Caroline’s getting wedding imagery and Elena has two people in her cult.

                  I agree that in the show, it is Elena>Caroline>Bonnie but they just seem like slightly diff shades of gross honestly. Idk. Things are so bad now that I have lost my ability to see the differences. Ok so, Caroline got wedding imagery but what does that mean? The guy who carried her away from her torturer father is now becoming a total psycho and is probably cheating her or something. Where is this headed? Is there going to be more torture porn?

                  • Ok so, Caroline got wedding imagery but what does that mean?

                    It means they decided to give Caroline that grand gesture. Leaving aside the torture and the punishing her for her being comfortable with her sexuality. The type of meta I’m talking about is basically Caroline/Elena vs. Bonnie or like you said Elena>Caroline>Bonnie. Looking at how they’re writing Forwood, I think they’re saying that Caroline has found her knight in shining armor. I know this because he went out of his way to tell his mom that Caroline’s not a prostitute (how very big of him), and while Elena’s out of one knight, another’s already lining up. But Bonnie has yet to get sexual or make out really, and the person who put her first and was focused on her needs is now confused or whatever over some dead girl who I was under the impression he wasn’t even in love with.

                    I definitely don’t want them to start giving Bonnie grand gestures. They suck at it and it’s always OTT. I was happy with the gestures they were giving her last season. But the thing is what I’ve mentioned many times which is that while they tear Elena down, they hold her up. While they dump on Caroline, they give her these sex/make-out scenes and gestures. And while they have Bonnie giving and giving and giving for these people…what?…in Bonnie’s case there isn’t a contradiction. She just gives and they take and she saves them while they have their drama. But they finally had someone who wanted to give for her, but now they’re having Jeremy do an about face or something similar and for what? So she can lose that and go back to giving, giving, giving? So that she can go be a girlfriend to Matt (I can’t even)?

                    I’m not taking into consideration the fact that they might make-up. This is purely looking at how they decided to bring romantic drama into the relationship and that was by not only bringing in Anna, but to give her such a hold on Jeremy that he’s apparently forgetting that he’s dead. All while Bonnie’s standing right there.

                    • You are right about everything, of course. This show has me so confused. It is incomprehensible to me. What is it even about? You know how for Buffy, it was “Highschool is hell” for the first few years? What is it for this show? Love is hell? I don’t get it and I feel stupid for not getting it which is distressing right now because I am working on an assignment on healthcare which is so not my field. This show is hurting my self-esteem, y’all.

                    • Lmao! So dramatic! Don’t even feel stupid. Some of us are too smart for this show. Most shows have an internal mechanism, you know? Heck, even Heroes was about ordinary people with extraordinary powers. The stories started to repeat, but I got it even as they woobified Sylar. TVD is like a permutation of bad storytelling. It’s incredible that they’re screwing up not just this early in the series, but this early in the season.

                • Ugh! I guess what I am trying to say is that there is so much racism and misogyny that I can’t even tell what is what anymore. It is all just a big old pile of gross. Like when I am watching Nikita, I can easily side-eye them for killing off the only real black female character last season and getting a new female black character this season who is merely a prop. I can do that because the rest of the “isms” isn’t freaking blinding. I mean, the whole world is sexist/racist/classist/homophobic/wtvr so you can never really get away from that but TVD seems on another level. Or maybe it is just me and the fact that I am usually pretty selective about the media I consume

                  • Susan, I’m right there with you… I’m so glad I’ve found this website where others have similar issues with the show, and I know I’m not alone. Most of the forums/recap sites I’ve found are overly fawning of the show, and I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone when I read ’em.

                    Maybe it’s not fair, but I expected better somehow, from a show run by a woman and a gay man. Why does it still seem sexist and homophobic? Are they just afraid to instill their own values in their writing because they have to please their bosses/keep their paychecks?

                    I do understand that women can be misogynistic too. And I guess gay people can have self-loathing and/or a prejudiced attitude. But I had a higher opinion of Kevin Wiliamson before. Maybe I was wrong, or maybe his earlier work (Dawson’s Creek, Wasteland) was better ’cause it was more autobiographical and personal for him… whereas he’s just doing TVD to pay the bills. I don’t know.

                    Sadly, not as surprised by the racism, but I didn’t expect it to be *so* blatantly horrible. And despite all the complaints about killing off almost every black character, and making almost every witch, black… they keep on doing it?!

                    • Why does it still seem sexist and homophobic?

                      I’d say it’s because even though JP’s a woman and KW is gay they’re not immune from the social norms. They absorbed it, grew up in it. So like you said, a woman can be misogynistic and male identified, a gay person can internalize a lot of the crap about gay people and not to mention they can also be misogynistic. And of course they’re both White. And KW’s a White male.

          • I hated how the writers had Damon call Elena “Buffy” in a mocking way… like he’s amused by her even trying to learn self-defense. Shouldn’t he be *happy* that she’s finally making an effort to take care of herself? Or does he just want to be the one protecting her all the time? He wasn’t pleased with her suicidal attitude in season 2, so… Are the writers trying to throw a bone to those viewers who’ve complained about Elena being weak, but at the same time undermining it?

            • Damon’s always amused at Elena trying to assert herself. You can tell where it comes from because in one of her preview things, JP said something like, Elena’s going Nancy Drew and trying to do something without Damon which can only be bad. She said it in the preview for episode 2.

              • Geez… Now I know why I try to avoid interviews with the showrunners. The JP quotes I’ve come across, always make me mad. But thanks for telling me…it sure is illuminating. I find it so depressing that a woman would make fun of another woman for being assertive (you can’t tell me Julie Plec isn’t assertive herself, to be in the powerful position she’s in, career-wise) or learning self-defense (maybe JP’s been lucky, but she should be aware that women are more vulnerable to certain dangers in this messed up world… and it’s nothing to joke about.)

                No wonder she takes Matt’s side over Caroline’s, in interviews. Apart from everyone knowing she has the hots for the actor, which, I must say seems very unprofessional to me, publically ogling the actors on your show – just as wrong as a male employer making inappropriate comments about a female employee. Why is it sexual harrassment in any other field of work, but somehow okay if you’re in the entertainment biz? I know that physical attractiveness plays a part in why these actors are hired, but I still feel sorry for actors & actresses who are objectified to the point where their *boss*, someone in a position of power over them *already*, is now leering at them and boldly admitting to finding any excuse to get them shirtless, etc. It seems like an abuse of power, y’know? I would feel very uncomfortable and even nervous/fearful, if I had to work for someone like Julie Plec. And I don’t think JP or anyone should assume that guys are more comfortable with being treated like an object/piece of meat, than girls would be. We’re all human and deserve respect.

                There should be some boundaries and a level of professional respect, even if you’re a writer who’s dealing with sex scenes/exploiting the good looks of your actors… somehow, make it more about the characters, not the actors themselves. I don’t know if I’m expressing it well but…yeah. Sorry to go off-topic a bit, but …stream-of-consciousness rant, I guess. Been bugging me for awhile. Again, so grateful to have this forum to vent amongst people who get it!

                • I must say seems very unprofessional to me, publically ogling the actors on your show – just as wrong as a male employer making inappropriate comments about a female employee. Why is it sexual harrassment in any other field of work, but somehow okay if you’re in the entertainment biz

                  OMG! Yes! to your entire comment. This is the first show for which I followed media interviews and this has been bugging me from day one. But I thought I was being a prude or something and that this is just the way Hollywood is. JP once commented on the “package” of an actor who had a guest spot on Dawson’s Creek on her Twitter account. It turned my stomach. Didn’t she work on that show at a low level? I can’t imagine commenting on my former co-workers’ “packages” in public. I get that that sex appeal is important in this industry but that is for the viewers not for the employers. Idk. It just seems so sketchy because of the power imbalance. Btw, has she toned that down recently? I haven’t been following her interviews for a while

                  • Thanks Susan… if you’re a prude, then I am too. 🙂 I don’t think it’s prudish to not want an authority figure/employer making sexual comments about you (especially in public, without your consent), because, like you said…it’s about the power imbalance… and a person in a position of power making you feel even more powerless. It’s not a compliment, really. Even if someone enjoys being considered sexy, context is important… there are certain circumstances where someone might not want to be objectified, and if your boss makes these comments, and you’re uncomfortable…what can you do? You feel pressured to be okay with it/be quiet, because… it’s your boss, and they can fire you.

                    We know how kill-happy TVD is, so just imagine the extra pressure… the actors must be acutely aware of how their character can be killed off if there’s some behind-the-scenes friction – I’m sure nobody feels free to say no to Julie Plec. It’s just… squicky.

                    I don’t know if she’s toned it down, ’cause I just come across quotes randomly on forums… I did not know how far she was going with the inappropriate comments on twitter. I only follow a few people I love on twitter. And I do not love Julie Plec, in case you couldn’t tell. 😉 Luckily, I can say this, as she is not the boss of me. 😛

  18. Now I am going to go in the opposite direction. Is it weird that so many people want to control Stefan by force, if necessary? Has this guy ever been without someone telling him what to do? Elena actually measures how strong she is by how much she can control him or something. Alaric actually said that she wanted to train because her boyfriend hurt her and she didn’t want that to happen again – not that Klaus has hurt her. Just Stefan. There are all these people who seem to derive their self-worth from having Stefan loyal to them or by their side or doing things they want him to do – Elena, Katherine, Lexi, Klaus. I haven’t thought about Stefan too much before so I don’t know if I am saying this right.

    Just babbling because I am still working on that infernal assignment. It never ends

    • I don’t see the case for this. The Elena thing has literally come about only this episode (and we probably won’t see it again). I think there’s more a case to be made for what Olu has said which is that Stefan bends to fit the image people have of him while knowing who he really is.

      I don’t think Katherine, Lexi, or even Klaus measure their self-worth by anything Stefan does.

      Lol. That reminds me: I need to do my Spanish homework before I forget. For the 3rd time.

      • Lol. That reminds me: I need to do my Spanish homework before I forget. For the 3rd time.

        Lol. Isn’t this a nightmare? It is the weekend for God’s sake. I don’t miss school at all.

    • I had this huge response to this all typed out and then my screen froze and I lost it all and now I want to cry, so I’ll just c/p what Alta said about what I said until I feel less depressed about spending so much time typing up Stefan meta.

      Stefan bends to fit the image people have of him while knowing who he really is.

      Basically.

        • I’m going to type up the gist of it.

          Stefan, in my opinion, functions in three ways in relationships, that we’ve seen so far.

          1) He shapes someone’s perspective of him (his relationship with Elena is about him being in control or least attempting to be in control of how she views him whether that means he’s the perfect boyfriend who is going to understand her every need and apologize, whether he’s paying attention to what he’s apologizing for or if he’s actually at fault (usually he’s not. usually he’s saying the words) or whether he’s the sociopath who wants her to let him go or calls her pathetic because it hurts her,

          2) he works within the framework he’s been given or he performs within the image others have found him in (he’s the good son to his father or he’s the good brother to Damon, he’s the floundering newb for Lexi able to be saved (i hate this one because it erases her character and it erases stefan’s capability, it erases one of the only things that gave Stefan an active POV in his behavior or that showed he at least has an idea that he’s awful even if at the end of it he believes he’s essentially good) he’s a “ripper” for Rebekah and Klaus, of course he started before they entered his life, but he let them into his ritual so to speak in an effort to prove himself, to perform for their benefit (it’s all the better that he probably didn’t really care),

          or 3) he rejects. Katherine is the only character (with the exception of Klaus compelling Stefan to ‘turn it off’… which is slightly different) who has ever forced a behavior on Stefan. Yes, he loved her before she revealed she was a vampire, but if his reaction, in the present, in the moments he’s been allowed to have a reaction, is anything to go by, without compulsion, Stefan would not have been interested in Katherine anymore. Unlike Damon, Stefan would not have accepted her vampirism. I tend to think that Katherine, when it comes to her love for Stefan, screwed herself over by compelling him. The compulsion got him to stay, but there are differences between the intensity of his feelings pre-discovery in “Memory Lane” and his interactions with Katherine afterward. Yeah, he’s possessive, but he’s not quite as devoted as Damon seems to be. So I think it’s there for Stefan, that he would have never stayed, that his life was changed by something he didn’t get to choose or even get to know he had a choice in. (The same way that Damon’s life was changed by something he chose and the point where they diverge is in the aftermath: with Stefan choosing to become a vampire and then forcing that choice onto Damon). So he’s still rejecting Katherine after all these years. If the show were better, then I could see the same fallout occurring for Klaus (but Klaus is going to die so it doesn’t matter & the show will never explore it so it really doesn’t matter)

          Then I went into the idea that, if this show was better, and had been setting Stefan up as a villain from the start, then one could argue that Stefan collects people. I can’t really explain it right now, but I mentioned basically how he wears the beliefs of others around him, the beliefs he has been instrumental in orchestrating or the beliefs he’s simply decided to take on (like Emily’s declaration that Stefan has a good heart. I remember watching that episode with my sister and saying “that makes no fucking sense”) as part of his identity. But he takes on the good more than the bad. Because if he can “act” as a good person, he can be a good person. Everyone has always told him he was, so what more is there to it than believing in it? I also mentioned his victim list and how his desire to have his victims’s names was about stealing something else from them. Perception and identity stuff.

          It made a lot more sense the first time I wrote it out.

          • I wrote more than this the first time, when it came to his relationships with Elena and Damon and his inclination towards getting people to trust him and why certain characters were more prone to being attracted to Stefan, especially the more emotionally unstable ones. I think I may have explained my issues with the retcon of the Lexi/Stefan friendship and how it hurt both characters, especially Lexi. I might try to get it down again eventually.

            • A lot of this makes sense.

              Are you saying that he rejected Katherine because she forced him into a role? He is like a performer who likes to choose his performance?? Idk

              Also, where does his “blacking out” fit into all this? That part has always been weird to me. I know it is not out of guilt. What is it? Too much pleasure?? Weird

              Plus, he also tends to have really poor negotiating skills. Or rather, it seems like he can’t make friends?? I am not entirely clear on what I am getting at. There is Lexi who was trying to save him and there was (sort of) Caroline who he was trying to save in a way. I can’t imagine Stefan with a friend like Alaric. Idk why. In addition, he is always sent out to negotiate on behalf of the group (Mason, the Martins, Tyler) but he sucks at it. Most of the time he just gets really antagonistic. Maybe he can only function within a hierarchy??

              • Also, where does his “blacking out” fit into all this? That part has always been weird to me.

                I just realized something. Now obviously the show is going with what Damon said: Stefan blacks out, and this is supposed to be something that Stefan would say if asked. But we make Stefan more interesting, so I’m going to split hairs: Stefan still hasn’t said he blacks out. He had an opportunity on prank night when was about to eat Elena, and all he said was, “I have to feed on you, and once I start I won’t be able to stop.” Nothing about blacking out. Sticking with our canon, I’ll say he won’t be able to stop because he’d care less than he already does.

                I can’t imagine Stefan with a friend like Alaric.

                I can’t either. Not anymore, and it’s all because of the fact that they’ve change Lexi’s role in his life by…actually giving her a role in his life. Now she’s someone who influenced his journey. Ugh.

                In addition, he is always sent out to negotiate on behalf of the group (Mason, the Martins, Tyler) but he sucks at it. Most of the time he just gets really antagonistic.

                I’m loving the thoughts this is giving me. Thoughts about how Stefan really doesn’t have the patience for people’s differing opinions. He turned on both Mason and the Martins so damn quick. He got UJ out of town as soon as he could. Imagine if he was in town while Bill was here? I’m imagining a Stefan who only does these negotiations as a curtesy but is really waiting to just snap. The only person who’s dissenting opinion he takes is Elena’s and he still finds a way to do what he thinks is best. And when he is talking to her while she’s disagreeing with him, do you notice how he talks very.intensely. and emphasizes every.word? Like he’s trying to hold himself back? Not holding himself back from hurting her, but holding himself back from maybe throwing things or yelling in frustration or showing that he’s not actually good at negotiating/listening to dissenting opinions.

                • I can’t either. Not anymore, and it’s all because of the fact that they’ve change Lexi’s role in his life by…actually giving her a role in his life. Now she’s someone who influenced his journey. Ugh.

                  Who is Lexi now that they’ve made her Stefan’s savior? Who can she be other than a random who, for whatever reason decided Stefan was better than he was? Don’t know. I can’t even give her head canon anymore, the writers have ruined it so much.

                    • In the trailer she’s going to torture him and stuff right? But their relationship in s1 suggested nothing of the sort. Unless we’re about to find out that she actually was a member of a vampire cult based around making vampires good then I don’t understand how they were meant to be best friends going to Bon Jovi concerts or climbing the Empire State.

              • Are you saying that he rejected Katherine because she forced him into a role? He is like a performer who likes to choose his performance?? Idk

                In a way, yes. I don’t think Stefan likes to be controlled or manipulated. (off topic: I think it’s weird that Katherine believes the lie she helped create.)

                Like Alta said, Stefan’s never said that he blacks out. That is the excuse of other characters. He might say he has no control, but he never says he’s not present.

                Also, everything Alta said about Stefan’s negotiating skills. He’s bad at it because it is a courtesy to him. He doesn’t actually care about hearing dissent.

                • (off topic: I think it’s weird that Katherine believes the lie she helped create.)

                  Is it? I used to think so but now that I am seeing Elena and Katherine as the same person or the show is making them more like the same person, it doesn’t surprise me. Think about Elena. Think about how desperate she is to hold on to the Salvatores or to family and how she lives on hope like you mentioned in a comment below. Also, remember that weird Katherine/Lucy interaction. Katherine kind of seemed hurt that Lucy didn’t really consider her a friend. Plus, it seems like both Katherine and Elena react almost the same way to a lot of things but Katherine is more sociopathic/opportunistic. For example, Katherine stalked Stefan – Elena stalked Stefan. Katherine stabbed Stefan after he rejected her – Elena stabbed Stefan after he rejected her. Katherine always needs a partner to do anything – Elena always needs a partner to do anything. Idk. I know I am being vague and non-specific but I haven’t formed a clear idea on this yet. Anyway, it also seems like Elena has gone from valuing every life to “better you than *us*”. For Katherine, it is “better you than *I*”. I wonder if that is the next stop for Elena near the end of the series. Maybe that is where all this “empowerment” stuff is going to lead.

                • (off topic: I think it’s weird that Katherine believes the lie she helped create.)

                  You mean Stefan’s feelings for her? I think she’s rationalizing it as, “There’s no way he couldn’t have know something was up with me. He wouldn’t have fallen in love with me if he really didn’t want to.”

                  • That makes sense. I just rewatched the episode where she compelled him and the show leaves it up in the air whether she compelled him to not change his feelings (she says “You’re feelings for me haven’t changed” and then the camera goes to her eyes and then her mouth as she tells him they’re going to go on as they were before). So she could rationalize that he fell in love with her before, so it doesn’t matter what came after. Like when she told him she compelled him not to be scared (though that wasn’t true) and that he chose to love her on his own.

                    So she’s right, in her mind, to a certain extent.

                  • I think that Katherine also creates these fake families and friendships that she half buys into. This is actually reminding me of Damon/Andie and how in the beginning he called her his “fake” girlfriend but by the end of it, his response to Alaric calling her that was something like, “it is complicated”. Plus, he had her acting all independent around him and he was doing bf things like picking her up from work. It was like in brainwashing her, he was also slowly brainwashing himself. I wish that storyline had gone on longer even though it was disturbing as hell. There might be more to compulsion than has been explained so far. In fact, JP said that this storyline was supposed to go into all the ways compulsion works. But this was before the actress leaked her script and before she got other work (I guess)

                    • They do create fake families. I think, to a degree, they have to start buying into it at a certain point when it comes to creating relationships with humans. Because there are still more humans than vamps and relationships with humans would become a necessity. It would probably make most vampires worst if they couldn’t buy into the relationship being genuine. Even if they get to make those choices. At least, that’s my head canon.

                      I actually think that Damon’s relationship with Andie would have been better if instead of being compelled she’d been messed up enough to consent to a relationship with Damon. Mostly because, this show always goes immediately towards consent being taken away instead of exploring the various complicated responses that one could have to discovering vampires existed. Damon would have been using Andie, but she would have been using him right back. Even if it was dangerous for her at least she would have been choosing it.

                      And I don’t trust JP & KW to explore compulsion in a way that wouldn’t end up being a form of retcon and Andie wasn’t enough of a character prior to being compelled for us to get a true sense of the results.

                    • Yes, they seem to view the vampires as more complicated than the humans. Look at how they completely ignored the humans in season 2. They ignored them to the point that they turned Elena into a supernatural entity.

                      This reminds me of Slater and his girlfriend. Only maybe Andie wouldn’t want to become a vamp.

                    • I actually think that Damon’s relationship with Andie would have been better if instead of being compelled she’d been messed up enough to consent to a relationship with Damon. Mostly because, this show always goes immediately towards consent being taken away instead of exploring the various complicated responses that one could have to discovering vampires existed.

                      Actually, I was thinking in terms of what, if anything, compulsion did to the person doing the compelling – not just the compelled. In season one, it seemed like a mental link formed between Damon and Caroline. He was able to summon her to come save him. I think it would be interesting if, over time, the link started working both ways creating a sort of feedback loop. So that some of feelings/thoughts compelled into the victim come back in a weaker form to the vampire. In this scenario, the changes in Andie don’t really matter. It is the changes in Damon that would matter. Idk. It is done now. They aren’t going to do anything with it.

            • You know what really threw me for a loop as far as my understanding of Stefan goes? That scene when he was crying behind a wall while Elena comforted Jenna. What the hell was that? I expected him to stand in the doorway expressionless just watching them and throwing a looks of sympathy at Elena when she looked up at him. I don’t even know why. Just intuitively that would have made more sense to me.

              • Yeah. I can’t explain why Stefan was crying when Elena told Jenna about vampires. He’s real empathetic, yo. I tend to think the writers played Stefan’s emotions OTT in s2, so I’m going to blame it on his maintaining control while drinking human blood.

                I expected him to stand in the doorway expressionless just watching them and throwing a looks of sympathy at Elena when she looked up at him. I don’t even know why. Just intuitively that would have made more sense to me.

                It would have made more sense to everyone.

              • Actually, I was thinking in terms of what, if anything, compulsion did to the person doing the compelling – not just the compelled. In season one, it seemed like a mental link formed between Damon and Caroline. He was able to summon her to come save him. I think it would be interesting if, over time, the link started working both ways creating a sort of feedback loop. So that some of feelings/thoughts compelled into the victim come back in a weaker form to the vampire. In this scenario, the changes in Andie don’t really matter. It is the changes in Damon that would matter. Idk. It is done now. They aren’t going to do anything with it.

                That would actually be worth exploring and incredibly twisted as it would encourage the vampire to keep compelling whoever they were killing. When I was trying to figure out compulsion at the beginning of s1, it occurred to me that compulsion comes with a groundwork of trust, if the vampire wants that trust or if only one vampire is doing the compulsion on an individual. Because Caroline knew that she shouldn’t trust Damon, but she did because of the compulsion. She existed, to a certain extent, in both states. Same with Andie more or less by the time she died. Same with Stefan, though it was expressed differently with Stefan.

                • That would actually be worth exploring and incredibly twisted as it would encourage the vampire to keep compelling whoever they were killing.

                  It seems like this show should be twisted and it is but for all the wrong reasons(??). They don’t do it in interesting ways. They do it by *not* acknowledging how twisted the very premise of the show it.

                  I agree that compulsion is all about establishing trust. At least, when a vampire is doing it to a human being. Vampire on vampire compulsion like with Elijah and Slater seems different. It just seemed like Slater lost control of his body. He was protesting until the end. So was Stefan. In humans, it creates a desire to *believe* in what they are being told if that makes any sense

                  • They don’t do it in interesting ways. They do it by *not* acknowledging how twisted the very premise of the show it.

                    Yeah, the show’s twistedness is due to a lack of exploration and exploration is rendered null and void by how often they retcon the things that should be constants.

                    It makes complete sense. Both forms of compulsion seem to be about control, but the vampire on human compulsion comes with manipulation. Idk, like you said, Slater and Stefan weren’t in control and there was resistance and hesitation in their behavior (how Slater staggered the motion of him staking himself). When humans are compelled…I guess the trust comes in (like with Amber) to keep them calm.

          • *Clapping*

            I think I get what you mean when you say he collects people. Like you said, Stefan is secure in who he is, so it must be downright fascinating for him to observe all of the perceptions he arouses in people. It would be so cool if he literally had the people in his life sorted into the categories you describe. This wouldn’t mean that he isn’t genuine in his feelings for them (Damon, Elena), but all the same he’s a sociopath. So creepy.

            • Isn’t that what they are having him do right now? He seems to be studying Elena. Blech

              Btw, why was your initial reaction NOOOO!!! Is it because you really liked him? I did start to find him interesting in season 2 but only because he started being weirdly emotional. That was a change from season one when he seemed really cold.

              • That is what he’s doing, but it’s not canon. JP isn’t going to give interviews about Stefan studying people because he’s really a sociopath. No character will say that’s what he’s doing. Unfortunately.

                Because the meta was deleted and I wanted to read what she had written.

                • I am new to fandom so excuse the stupid questions please.

                  Is something only cannon if the writers explicitly say it is happening or if someone in the show say it is happening? What if it is something pretty obvious but no one who is in the show or is part of the show’s production comments on it? I don’t think that these showrunners will ever admit to the darker aspects of their show. They don’t want to alienate all the tween girls. And maybe that is why the show is so inconsistent. They want to write a much darker show but they feel the need to balance that out with something they think appeals to teenage girls or their idea of teenage girls anyway.

                  • Something is only canon if it is stated or suggested on the show.

                    Even if JP said that Stefan was studying people because he’s a sociopath, it wouldn’t count until someone on the show said that Stefan was studying people or that what Stefan does is study people in order to manipulate them.

                    The show doesn’t want us to think that Stefan’s a sociopath, so textually he’s not. The subtext says he is, but there are fans who still say that Stefan is a self-sacrificing good guy, which is what the show wants us to believe. So the subtext isn’t universal.

                    They’re really bad at balancing if they think repeatedly claiming that their serial killing “romantic hero” is a good guy balances out the body parts.

                  • Is something only cannon if the writers explicitly say it is happening or if someone in the show say it is happening?

                    Yeah. Canon is what happens on the show, the things that can’t be denied (they can be interpreted differently, but they can’t be denied).

                    What if it is something pretty obvious but no one who is in the show or is part of the show’s production comments on it?

                    Then it’s still not canon in some cases. Because it’s “obvious” to who? The fans or the characters? It doesn’t qualify as canon because what’s obvious to us may be interpreted entirely differently within the show. We say Elena’s an idiot. Stefan says Elena’s an idiot, but it’s not canon that Elena’s an idiot who can’t come up with a plan that works. For one, Stefan called her an idiot while “evil” so it doesn’t count for the producers, and for another, I’m pretty sure Elena’s comeback is the version we’re supposed to go with: she’s strong.

            • it must be downright fascinating for him to observe all of the perceptions he arouses in people. It would be so cool if he literally had the people in his life sorted into the categories you describe. This wouldn’t mean that he isn’t genuine in his feelings for them (Damon, Elena), but all the same he’s a sociopath

              YES!. It makes me sad thinking about how great a character he could have been if the writers weren’t so focused on 1)telling us he’s a “hero” and 2) not killing him.

              • So are Damon and Stefan two different kinds of sociopaths? Because when I think of what a sociopath is, I also see Damon. His behavior with Elena lately is not that different from Stefan’s really. Stefan is studying her and manipulating her but so Damon. He is just doing it in a more physical way??

                • Interesting. I guess I’d describe Damon as more of a psychopath with sociopathic tendencies. Mostly because Stefan is full on working within his own moral framework and Damon knows he’s working outside of the moral framework of others. I don’t know how to describe it. He has more of a sense of the wrongs he commits and doesn’t care. Whereas Stefan can frame those wrongs as being outside of his control or as being ‘good’ within the context of his moral framework.

                  • I guess I’d describe Damon as more of a psychopath with sociopathic tendencies.

                    I agree. Psychopath is the first word that comes to mind to describe Damon. It rolls off the tongue so easily. Not so much for Stefan, and vice versa for sociopath.

                • Or/also

                  Stefan has been, in a way, manipulating and studying Elena for much longer, and his manipulations have always been implicit, in comparison to Damon’s manipulations. Though I’d argue that Damon regular pushes Elena’s boundaries until she accommodates to accept his behavior.

                  • * regularly

                    I mean that there’s no lie in what Damon wants from Elena or who he is. There is a lie when it comes to Stefan. There is an attempt on his part to control her view of him.

  19. Lmao! So dramatic!

    I specialize in dramatic. Every crisis is the end of the world. Except I do it in this kind of stony faced calmness in person – I am calmly stressed

    Most shows have an internal mechanism, you know?

    The closest thing this show reminds me of is Wuthering Heights (ToD anyway). Now I wish I had finished that book. Or maybe this is a sign. I am not that into weirdly obsessive love and that is why I am not getting this show.

    Olu, I am really curious about your Stefan meta now. I haven’t really thought about Stefan seriously. I used to spend most of my time on Damon even though I spent most of last season hating him. Please, post it one of these days.

    I want to cry

    *hugs*

  20. In the trailer she’s going to torture him and stuff right?

    Probably. And Elena will be soothing that this is for his own good. I think the Forbes Torture Chamber is the new Tomb.

    • Lol. These people. I don’t know what else to say. Except maybe…What is Elena really? The whole show is about people who *don’t* care. All this talk about Stefan made me remember a thought that popped into my head earlier this season. Is Elena sort of like Stefan in that she is basically making up stories about herself and has kind of bought into them?

      Oh well, time to sleep

      This has been great. Thanks Olu and Alta. Good night

      • Is Elena sort of like Stefan in that she is basically making up stories about herself and has kind of bought into them?

        I think Elena is more desperate/hopeful than anything else. She needs to believe that she’s being strong and not stupid. She’s got nothing to fall back on. Which is more the result of the effect the Salvatores have had on her life then an idea of herself she’s attempting to construct. I’d argue that she’s trying to grow into someone stronger instead of actually lying about it. It’s just that the strength she wants to grow into is grounded more in what she hopes to get out of it then what she’ll actually get out of it.

        This has been fun. Hope you sleep well. Night.

  21. Do you guys understand why Vicky told Matt about her plan to kill Elena? Why didn’t she just disappear? She must have known that he would try to stop her. Did she just want to hit him? I wish there was more suspense there. I wish Vicky had simply told Matt that she has to fulfill her side of the bargain or that she was going to kill someone who was disturbing the balance of nature without mentioning Elena. That way when Bonnie showed up, Matt would have been uncooperative or would have hesitated and Bonnie would have had to figure out what is going on.

  22. One more thing. What do you guys think of Elena stabbing Stefan at the end? It feels weird to me but I am not sure why. It seems totally pointless. I am thinking it is violence for the sake of violence or to give Elena a fake win. Maybe I am missing the point of the scene.

    • It was pointless, a way to give her a win without actually allowing her to win. Nothing comes of it except her saying that her feelings for him make her strong. It was like when Caroline said she wasn’t a little girl anymore.

  23. You guys, apparently TVD fandom is out of control. The TVD recapper is not happy with us as a whole. We have gone too far. Her advice is “Stop watching and the pain will go away”. That arrogant line was, apparently, uttered by Joss Whedon at some point. Lol. More like, “Stop watching so you can stop annoying me”

      • The TWOP recapper. I still post there. She meant the Fandom in general. Apparently, we should just let the stories wash over us and not question too much. We have become too “vitriolic” She even had links to some of the crazier examples (which were pretty tame if you ask me). One person on TV fanatic said that JP should drown herself. Ok, that is pretty bad but that is one poster and people are always going to call famous people names. Also, someone started a petition about Stelena on change.org. I laughed so hard at that, I almost fell off my chair. What is wrong with that? It is hilarious and harmless. There was also a link to the spn-gossip LJ (this wasn’t even TVD related). Yikes! Visit there at your own risk. I lurked on SPN fandom for years after I stopped watching the show because it was so entertaining. It is the most eccentric fandom I have seen but I hadn’t stumbled on that website before. It is RP shipping except people think it is real and they got ANGRY that Jared Padalecki’s wife got pregnant because they were sure that she was his beard. Lol. I am legit scared of those guys, Alta. Anyway, none of that means we have to shut the hell up. Idk. TWOP is getting weird. Not that many people even post on that TVD forum anymore. The Spoilers thread used to move so fast and now it takes days to move *one* page. Why does she think it is *more* vitriolic now? It was CRAZY last season when more people were taking the show seriously. On the plus side, it is not that combative now.

          • That fandom is scary. There is always talk of the worst fandoms, but Supernatural fandom is actually the full-on worst fandom. One time this girl made a huge post about Jensen’s wife and how she “dared” to show up at a convention with him and didn’t she know that she should have stayed home so his fans could enjoy him in private. I’m not sure what was creepier, her post or the number of people who actually agreed with her.

            • The recapper was referring mostly to TVD fandom though. Have we gone too far? I didn’t think so. Most people are just complaining but that is what set her off (very politely of course). We are complaining TOO MUCH.

              • While sometimes I find it necessary to take a step back and take the show as it is, I don’t think that people’s complaints are invalid or should stop. The problems people are having with the show have just as much to do with how incoherent the show is as they do with ships & screen time. Maybe if this show took itself less seriously it wouldn’t be so bad, but the show clearly takes itself very seriously and the writers act like the story they’ve created for the past two years is cohesive, even though canon sometimes doesn’t make it through an episode. We all know that the show can be cohesive, so the complaints aren’t out of line or ridiculous. Not in my opinion, at least.

          • But do you think that *we* should shut up about the show since it generally pisses us off. That was her point basically – If we are getting too pissed at the show and are too obsessed with it, we should stop watching it or take another look at your self. She was basically telling us “Look at your life. Look at your choices” She even stopped herself from analyzing scenes very obviously in her recap to show us how we shouldn’t do it either. Like “See here- this doesn’t make too much sense but I won’t trouble my mind with it and you shouldn’t either”

            • The thing is that I’m only watching this show for Bonnie. She is the only one who consistently brings me enjoyment. Now she doesn’t get so much screen-time or prominent stories that I can systematically ignore the triangle of doom and all the other crap going on. The show as a whole doesn’t piss me off. I don’t think I’ve ever been pissed at the entire show, just things to do with Bonnie, or Damon, or Elena, so select things.

              I don’t see the point in watching this particular show if I can’t analyze it whether in a good or bad way. TVD isn’t Merlin, or Misfits, or even Game of Thrones. I don’t analyze any of those shows (though I’ve read posts trying to explain time travel and how the powers work on Misfits). I just enjoy them. TVD is another story. I can’t pretend I don’t see the ridiculous or that it doesn’t bother me.

              • I just enjoy them. TVD is another story. I can’t pretend I don’t see the ridiculous or that it doesn’t bother me.

                Exactly. It is hard for me to articulate but there are shows I like to just watch and there are shows that I like to analyze even if it is just in my head. Although, most of those other shows didn’t drive me crazy to the level this one does with its ridiculousness. Smallville came the closest. I miss that show now.

            • I know I’m way too late to read this and respond but I can’t help it… !!!!!!!!! I already knew that TWOP had lost it’s edge because the recaps have been weak for awhile now and I don’t bother reading them… basically they sold out to the networks and advertisers, right? So they don’t want to be too critical of the shows anymore, especially if it’s a show that’s doing pretty well. I started to see a conflict of interest issue when some TWOP recappers were given exclusive interviews with people who work on the shows… and even invited to record audio commentaries on the dvds. There’s no way they’re gonna get those perks unless they tone down the snark to a mild, “inoffensive” mockery. Forget about real critical thrashings. There’s no point visiting that site anymore, except to read some of the posters (like Susan! :)) who still dare to be critical (although the mods are often, um, overzealous in smacking people down.)

              Anyway…. despite believing all of this for ages now, I’m still kinda shocked to read about that TVD recapper directly advocating turning off our brains, and chastising the fandom for being “too critical”. Damn, our society is already dumbed down enough. We are afraid to rock the boat, afraid to be considered too negative. I hate it. Our collective standards, for quality writing, or *anything*, are getting lower and lower. Movies, TV, radio, music industry, publishing (I can’t believe the crap that’s getting published nowadays…and the increase in typos/grammatical errors alone is appalling)… quality control is declining, everywhere.

              Please ignore that TWOP sellout who’s *way* too invested in pleasing the TVD powers that be, and shielding them from criticism (and proving to them that she’s on *their* side, not representing us TV viewers like she’s supposed to be, in my opinion). Don’t turn off your brains, please. Once you do, you won’t remember where the on-switch is. 😛

          • The talk about the wives is nothing. The SPN TWOP forum used to feature crotch shots of the actors. People would also hack into the facebook accounts of the actors’ family/friends so they could get private pics. That forum had pics of the actors’ weddings shortly after the events. You should also see (or if you value your sanity, don’t) some of the fanfiction porn. It is not just that there is EXTREME kinkiness (nothing is taboo) but the crazy quantity available.

  24. Wow I started reading your discussions like thirty minutes ago and just finished and i think all of you guys are a very creative bunch, i have come up with so many conclusions of why the hell Mikael is so powerful and now i have ideas thanks to you guys…..Well Caroline’s Father not being compelled by damon was foreshadows of how effective the vampire hunting training is or was…so i am guessing the witch’s said that the only way to get rid of every vampire in the world is creating a monster that would kill all of them and when he has killed all of them he himself would eventually die from hunger and thus all the monsters will be dead.

    • Hi, Qamar

      i am guessing the witch’s said that the only way to get rid of every vampire in the world is creating a monster that would kill all of them and when he has killed all of them he himself would eventually die from hunger and thus all the monsters will be dead.

      I like your theory about the witches’ strategy when it comes to Mikael. The only loophole I can see there is if he can create more of his kind. OMG! Lol That is going to be another moonstone curse arc, isn’t it?

  25. yeah..lol…you know they first started vd with damon as the bad guy, then it was isobel and jonathan gilbert then Katherine then werewolves….then their badness just faded after elijah came in and just when you think there couldn’t be anything more powerful here comes klaus with his witches and his curse and then you think wait bonnie is now very powerful and with the help of elijah they will finally kill klaus but then they just couldn’t kill him could they, instead they make him a hybrid and say he is unstoppable and now apparently he isn’t unstoppable and Mikael can kill him and (i am not sure they can come up with a very interesting way of killing him) then Mikael will be the new scary bad guy and i think for some funny reason Alena has a secret power that can kill him that is the only way to end a storyline they are ruining….finally all bad guys are gone and then we can focus on alena picking between her belovedS!!!

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