Episode 43: The Sun Also Rises

Episode 43

Guest: Cana

Quote of the podcast: “What kind of show are you when everything would be so much better if your main protagonist did not exist? […] Things would be so much better if she were dead. And that is a problem.”-Moi

In this episode, Elena somehow can’t choose between Jenna and Stefan, Cana and I wonder why Jenna is worried instead of relieved that Stefan might be taking her place, Elijah’s thirst for revenge is honorable but Jules’ wasn’t, and Damon kills a witch powerful enough to break a thousand-year-old-curse.

My episode 21 Bonnie Rant. It’s so weird reading it after all this time. I was so heated .

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12 thoughts on “Episode 43: The Sun Also Rises

  1. Thanks for the shout-out, Alta. 🙂

    I will never understand how the producers could think that it was a good idea to write a season finale (well, it wasn’t the actual finale but you know) and have the people we are supposed to be rooting for fail completely. Our so-called “heroine” dies, her aunt dies, her father dies. The bad guy escapes, while two of the other people the show runners expect us to be rooting for are standing there like idiots. How can that be good idea? – And I guess I should be mad at the characters for being so dumb but I can’t bring myself to feel that way because it’s so obvious the producers screwed them over. All of them, even including Stefan and Elena. And they screwed them over because Klaus is their priority now. They prioritize the *villain* over their main characters which is so messed up. Actually, this reminds me of one of Susan’s comments where she wrote that one of her fandom friends said that this is Klaus’s story now. I think I agree with this.

    Imo, Klaus should have stayed in Alaric’s body for the remaining episodes of S2. He should have tried to break the curse while in Alaric’s body. Then the producers should have gotten this curse/let’s kill the doppelganger business out of the way, I don’t really care how, and have the character ending up killing Klalaric thinking (and also leading the audience to believe) that this would be the end of Klaus. In this scenario, Alaric would have then been the tragic death in the finale, not Jenna. And in Season 3 the writers could have introduced Joseph Morgan as Klaus, revealing that killing Klalaric’s body didn’t mean killing Klaus after all – which may be a bit clichéd but imo still would have been better than what we actually got.

    Jules, Jenna and John were wasted. Wasted! Plus, I hate how the producers talk about Jenna and how she had to die because they had no idea what to do with her. First KW during Comic-Con and now there’s an interview with JP where she says that while Sara Canning is wonderful actress (which is so true and makes it even more sad how they treated her character) “Aunt Jenna had to go”. This is an actual quote from the interview. “Aunt Jenna had to go.” And in, like, the very next sentence, she goes on how the guy playing Elijah is also such a tremendous actor (which I agree with btw) and that’s why they expanded his role. I think JP said they felt like they had to create this life for him or something. But they couldn’t do this for Jenna. She had to go??

    With regard to ships I don’t understand – I don’t understand the Damon/Katherine shipping. I see a lot of Damon stans shipping them and I don’t get it. I mean, these are the guys who (for the most part) see everything from Damon’s perspective. They hate Jules and Bonnie for hurting Damon – but they ship him with Katherine? It’s so weird to me.

    Now that the S3 premiere is upon us I’m dreading it, lol. I’m dreading all the new horrors the writers intend to unleash upon us. Like, I have a suspicion what they are going to do with Andie. I hope they won’t go there but I’m afraid they will. Poor Andie.

    • And I guess I should be mad at the characters for being so dumb but I can’t bring myself to feel that way because it’s so obvious the producers screwed them over. All of them, even including Stefan and Elena. And they screwed them over because Klaus is their priority now.

      I’m agreeing with this more and more. Look at how they’re going to be focused on “saving” Stefan instead of focusing on the more urgent matter which is killing Klaus. There’s enough of them to divide and conquer: Damon and Elena can be trying to “save” Stefan, and Bonnie/Caroline/Jeremy/throw in Tyler if you want to can be brainstorming of ways to kill Klaus. Or even curse him again. I bet the latter conversation won’t even take place. The producers will throw all these curves and storylines at them to justify them not looking for a way to kill Klaus, and then two episodes before Klaus dies, they’ll start talking about it.

      This also relates to how I said Klaus killed Elena, killed her! And yet we’re going to be learning about him, his past, maybe he needs a hug, etc. Way to prioritize.

      Your idea sounds so much better than what we got. That would’ve been really interesting and even if people would have been able to guess that Klaus was still alive, it still would have been a great strategy on his part. But then we run into the question of souls. Could Klaus’ soul go through the werewolf change in Alaric’s body, or would he need to be in his own body. Of course the solution to this, if they want to avoid the topic of souls, is that Klaus simply would have missed the chance to shift. No biggie. As it is, we didn’t even get to see what he looks like in his werewolf form. And like Cana said, I don’t get how Tyler changed back and yet…the full moon was still up. And I don’t believe Klaus shifting like that was of his own volition.

      I read that interview, and I’m going to bring it up in the next podcast.

      With regard to ships I don’t understand – I don’t understand the Damon/Katherine shipping.

      Wow, I wasn’t expecting this one. Lol. Katherine’s played by Nina Dobrev, so I’m pretty sure the answer lies in there.

      Will Andie really be in season 3? You saw new clips of her in the trailer? I thought the clips they showed were old ones.

      • Look at how they’re going to be focused on “saving” Stefan instead of focusing on the more urgent matter which is killing Klaus.

        Yup. I don’t get why these people think that they have to “save” Stefan. They do know that he hasn’t been kidnapped. Anyway, this whole Ripper Stefan storyline is basically a way for the writers to keep Klaus on the show. It benefits him. (And, of course, it benefits the show runners because now they can have one of the main characters do all kinds shocking things. Who cares that they are ruining this character permanently in process when they can get a bunch of twists and shocks out of it.)

        Will Andie really be in season 3? You saw new clips of her in the trailer? I thought the clips they showed were old ones.

        Iirc, way back in July, the actress tweeted that she was back on set or something. I’m pretty sure that, like Rose and Jules, she will come back to die.

        Wow, I wasn’t expecting this one.

        Oh, actually I don’t get most of the ships on this show. I don’t get Delena, Bamon, Forwood, Stelena and Stefan/Katherine (Steferine? lol) either but I can sort of see why people would ship them. The only ships I can think of that I don’t get at all are Damon/Katherine and the people who still ship Caroline and Matt.

        • Yep, Steferine is the ship name for Stefan/Katherine. Sounds like a fairy. But it’s better than Kathamon which sounds like a digimon.

          If the writers bring Andie back and kill her, then I’ll take that as them not caring about being obvious. Actually, I can’t think of any way that Andie coming back would be good (keeping in mind that this show is the way it is). Unless Bonnie or Caroline kill/torture Damon for what he did or cut off ties with him permanently, then there’s not point.

  2. + It has no relationship to the book. I can tell you that. The title makes no sense.

    Tyler/Caroline/Matt:

    – Matt wasn’t only busing tables all that time. There’s probably a range somewhere in town. Matt’s emotionally all over the place in the last two episodes.

    – The scenes are there to waste film because the writers still weren’t sure how to fully flesh out the sacrifice.

    – There is no consistency in the episode right after.

    – I loved those lines for the very same reason and hate so much that show is so focused on Matt and Caroline in a relationship with each other instead of their very interesting stories outside of each other.

    – I’d actually die laughing when/if Matt and Stefan become friends. It would be pretty fucked up, but also hilarious because they have similar faults.

    – Caroline needs a storyline away from Matt and Tyler because both of them are bad for her, Matt in general and Tyler for her storyline, and the writers/fandom doesn’t seem to realize that.

    – The Tyler/Caroline scene in the trailer was hot, but their chemistry is still not that great to me.

    – The Stelena sex scene wasn’t hyped at all.

    Bonnie:

    – “I thinks he had a thing for him.” A completely unnecessary line.

    – These writers don’t give a shit about these characters.

    – The vampire blood should have interfered with the spell.

    – Why was Damon even talking or complaining? Are they going to trust some spell? Yes. A spell is what allows him to walk around in the sunlight. The way Damon keeps on having doubts about the magic doesn’t make sense with all the witches he’s known in his past.

    – Alta, let’s not insult writers by labeling the show runners writers. They wouldn’t have been able to think of a way to keep Klaus alive while also letting Bonnie complete the spell (like say, he doesn’t get to be a hybrid but his werewolf half or his vampire half or even the fucking doppelgänger blood saves his life).

    – Letting Bonnie throw Damon into the wall would have brought a moment of levity to the episode too.

    – Jeremy and Bonnie were busy doing other things. Or the air in the basement has an adverse effect on their senses.

    – This show does not care about the humans and I don’t get it. The supernatural isn’t half as interesting without interacting with the natural/humans. The humans have this huge stake in what’s going on, but the show, again and again, fails to acknowledge that the humans have a part in what’s going on.

    – Jeremy wanting to protect his family? Crazy sauce.

    – At this point there are too many confrontations that need to take place on this show.

    – Klaus would have eaten Stefan. Never thought about it. Maybe he would have been able to control it or Stefan would have played dead. Or he would have eaten him.

    – She does put on a good light show.

    – I thought Greta was going to get away. I really thought that Greta was going to get a storyline and be able to live and everything.

    – Elijah was so easy to play. Like ridiculously easy to play. “I didn’t throw them into the sea” does not equal “I didn’t stab them in the heart in order to kill them and keep them on ice and when I reunite you with them it will be to do the same to you, you know you love!”

    – Bonnie punching Stefan would have been brilliant. His plan failed and totally fucked up her plan and it would have been great to let her be angry about it and take it out on him. It would have been a moment of release and hilarious.

    – In the finale, Klaus? Klaus was a danger?

    – John had more meaningful scenes with Jeremy, Elena actually hates John, but she gets to be the one who owns grief of the moment.

    – Jenna’s death says so much about how women are treated on the show. She’s made completely passive.

    – A change in the line reading would have made more sense for Katherine’s character. She spent the whole season willing to let Damon die.

    – You’re talking about logic and the show as if they go hand in hand.

    – I forgot that Elijah called Stefan honorable. What? If Stefan had gone with Bonnie, the show would have made sense.

    – “You didn’t ask the Martins to find the bodies?” lol. It’s ridiculous that he wouldn’t do that.

    – If these characters asked questions/discussed their alliances then there wouldn’t be any GOTCHA moments and the show would actually make more sense.

    – Sometimes I wonder if the actors read the scripts and think, “The fuck is going on here?”

    – Who spoke about Stefan to Klaus? Is Klaus just screwing with him because he knows that Stefan once destroyed an entire town/already has plans for him and it’s funny to call him a “hero” when Stefan isn’t even an anti-hero? He’s at most a dark gray neutral even when he isn’t killing people. He’s a dark gray neutral.

    – They could have focused on both of their faces. They could have had Alaric touch Jeremy’s shoulder, acknowledging that Jeremy’s loss was greater.

    – Damon got bitten by a werewolf and his skin didn’t do that gross disgusting thing that Rose’s skin did.

    – If these characters were smart there would be a code word in place so they could tell when they were talking to Elena.

    – “She’s used to being bitten by her lover Klaus.” Yup. : ) , Greta would have been so fucking amazing as a regular/recurring character. Her level of power is stunning…can you imagine how powerful Gloria is?

    I’d be perfectly okay with the show retconning Greta’s death.

    – The fact that Elena would dare to lecture a witch on maintaining a balance, as if she even understands what that balance means.

    – Does Klaus even have plans for a new order? Considering he’s going to be running from something for most of this season.

    – Elena is St. Peter.

    – Jenna did fail Elena and Jeremy, but Elena failed Jenna more.

    – This podcast is hilarious.

    – Elena did say no. She’s known Stefan for maybe a year, but somehow she can’t choose between him and her aunt. What is wrong with this show?

    – Elena doesn’t lose anything directly through her own choices. She refuses to.

    – Klaus is like “Lol! I’ve got plans for your boyfriend and you don’t have a choice.”

    – That episode of Buffy is one of the best episodes ever. It made so much sense that she’d reach a point where she was broken. Elena apparently has an endless capacity for feelings.

    – Her parental figures are always dying in front of her and the sympathy is always mainly for her.

    – Jenna attacking Greta was pretty dumb.

    – Four women died for one white dude and this white dude, because the show is called the Vampire Diaries, is about take over the show.

    – They’ve had a lot of conversations about what turning the feelings off means and yet we haven’t got a clue what the effect of that is outside of killing everyone.

    – We’re supposed to be impressed. She’s still capable. She’s more than capable of showing sass to this guy who just killed two people to get to her. She doesn’t buckle and so on and so on. Elena should have screamed when Klaus bit her. She had more pain on her face when Stefan bit her wrist.

    – The way this show sexualized Elena’s death made me uncomfortable. Especially since the show doesn’t always sexualize the biting/killing, but if it does it’s more than likely with a female character as the one being bitten and it’s rarely this consensual/this is how I get my kicks situation.

    – Why wasn’t Matt at the funeral? Busing tables, probably.

    – They buried John and Jenna. There’s no way they can say John and Jenna went on vacation.

    – I knew there was no way that Klaus could be the older brother. My theory is that Elijah was protective and that turned their relationship into what it was. Elijah trying to help Klaus get what he wanted and possibly counseling him at the same time and stuff like that.

    – The final Damon scene was ridiculous. I did not get it at all. It was way too epic and Damon isn’t.

    • Jeremy wanting to protect his family? Crazy sauce.

      Ikr! Almost quit the show because of this Beremy madness. This was the ep after Damon messed with Elena. I was like, they are making Bonnie like Damon? Not to mention putting both Gilbert kids in toxic relationships with huge imbalances of power. Oh, heck no! Thank God, they let Jeremy get angry with Bonnie in the next ep. I hope he is still not completely comfortable with her in season 3.

    • – Matt wasn’t only busing tables all that time.

      Lol.

      – Alta, let’s not insult writers by labeling the show runners writers. They wouldn’t have been able to think of a way to keep Klaus alive while also letting Bonnie complete the spell (like say, he doesn’t get to be a hybrid but his werewolf half or his vampire half or even the fucking doppelgänger blood saves his life).

      Lol! Exactly. Being a werewolf and a vampire would have given him twice the regeneration power. Or something.

      – At this point there are too many confrontations that need to take place on this show.

      Yes! They just keep piling up!

      – John had more meaningful scenes with Jeremy, Elena actually hates John, but she gets to be the one who owns grief of the moment.

      It’s so messed up. Elena only decided like 3 episodes ago to learn to not hate John’s guts.

      – They could have focused on both of their faces. They could have had Alaric touch Jeremy’s shoulder, acknowledging that Jeremy’s loss was greater.

      That would have been perfect.

      I’d be perfectly okay with the show retconning Greta’s death.

      So would I.

      – They’ve had a lot of conversations about what turning the feelings off means and yet we haven’t got a clue what the effect of that is outside of killing everyone.

      That’s true. It’s so one note.

      Elena should have screamed when Klaus bit her. She had more pain on her face when Stefan bit her wrist.

      Seriously.

      – Why wasn’t Matt at the funeral? Busing tables, probably.

      Lol.

    • – The fact that Elena would dare to lecture a witch on maintaining a balance, as if she even understands what that balance means.

      I lose it at Alta’s reaction to that every time.

      – Does Klaus even have plans for a new order? Considering he’s going to be running from something for most of this season.

      I’m sure that NWO thing is a throw away line, because realistic Klaus should be on his knees in front of Greta all the time or whenever she wanted.

      – Jenna attacking Greta was pretty dumb.

      she went out with a fight though. They showed her attacking another woman, but as soon as Klaus touched her everything (but fear) went out of her. She was powerless in that man’s eyes. I wished Jenna’s screams haunted Elena for a long time.

      I’d like to think that Jenna recognized real power and tried to attack that. Because really what was Klaus?

      • Klaus should be on his knees in front of Greta all the time or whenever she wanted.

        Hell.yes.

        They showed her attacking another woman, but as soon as Klaus touched her everything (but fear) went out of her. She was powerless in that man’s eyes.

        Lawd have mercy, this show is so messed up. I didn’t even think of it that way.

  3. In the comments section of the last ep, I wrote about how they start an idea with one character and then use that same idea for another character. An example of that happened in this ep.

    Elena is forced to drink vampire blood -> Jenna gets turned into a vampire

    The gross Delena scene from the last ep had so much weight to it but instead of exploiting that, the writers decided to make it about Damon needing to be forgiven and John fixing it. *Jenna* was the one turned. None of it was actually about Elena. They didn’t even let Beremy have a reaction. I mean, why let the people Elena is closest to have a reaction to the fact that she was assaulted? It might actually make the story about Elena and not Damon’s struggles.

    They can’t keep any parents on the show because that might divide the Gilbert kids’ loyalties. There might be an effective opposition to the influence that the Salvatores have over everyone. It has nothing to do with KW being unable to write adult characters, imo. I tried to watch the TSC pilot the other day – could not get through it – and there were plenty of adults in it. One or two of the leads/main characters are adults.

    Imo, Klaus should have stayed in Alaric’s body for the remaining episodes of S2

    Emily, I really thought they were going to do this. When the real Klaus showed up so soon, I thought it was anti-climatic. At the very least, they should have had Alaric!Klaus mess with them in more. I don’t know why they didn’t let Klaus have Alaric’s memories. He was inside Alaric’s body after all. It would have been interesting to watch Klaus use Alaric’s knowledge of the group against them.

    The way this show sexualized Elena’s death made me uncomfortable. Especially since the show doesn’t always sexualize the biting/killing, but if it does it’s more than likely with a female character as the one being bitten and it’s rarely this consensual/this is how I get my kicks situation.

    Olu, I thought Jenna’s murder was sexualized too. She was lying down on her stomach and Klaus turned her over. Then he climbed on top of her while she was strangely silent and immobile. I don’t think any of it was unintentional.

    I agree that everyone would be better off if Elena never existed. But I still think that she had the potential to be interesting. There is this girl who feels responsible for the death of her parents and no matter what her intentions, she keeps inviting more and more death into her life. She CAN’T STOP. I mean, she lives with two dead people now. It is like she has this death wish due to her guilt but it keeps spreading to the other people around her while leaving her untouched. It is like she is reliving the car crash over and over again. So frustrating! LOL. Idk. She *could* have been interesting. Too bad the writers aren’t too interested in her and are obsessed with Damon instead.

    I chatted with my online bff last night and we were discussing what Elena’s purpose might be because she makes no sense to us. We haven’t watched a TVD ep in ages because it has gotten so bad. That is why I would like to know what you guys think. The following is an edited version of our discussion. I removed her name to protect her privacy. It is half formed so I don’t know if it will make sense. Plus, it was pretty late when we were on gchat so….

    me: I think we are supposed to identify with Elena. Maybe self-insert. Although, I am not completely sure what that term means.

    Her: I think we’re supposed to self-insert, but then ELENA IS ATTACKED FROM ALL SIDES. it’s not a happy insertion

    me: It is not. I think Elena acts like a buffer between the Salvatores and everything else. I think she is designed to be that way. The whole show is about how everyone is supposed to tolerate the Salvatores because of her. So then, she is blamed when things go wrong. If people don’t stand up to the Salvtores, it becomes Elena’s fault but not the person who failed to stand up or the Salvatores. Bonnie won’t hurt them because of Elena. I am betting Matt won’t hurt them either because of Elena. Even though, he is pretty sure they killed his sister. And, I guess, the Salvatores won’t hurt them because of Elena.

    Her: It would be much nicer to insert into Caroline, the self-accepting super-powered vampire healing her relationships, or Bonnie the all powerful witch. Not that those insertions would be GREAT but better. But those characters, esp Bonnie, are made so INhuman (literally and metaphorically) that there are pretty major hurdles to self-insertion with them. Like, it’s obvs harder to insert yourself into the body of an all-powerful, family-less, personal-interest-less witch who never has a real SL than it is into the one HUMAN who never has killed or done anything really bad, and who is the lead. But people are still like WAIT LEMME INSERT INTO BONNIE. Because uh, Elena is no great shakes.

    me: I am not talking about happy self-insertion though. I think she is a device to help us accept the Salvatores. I think that since we are supposed to be Elena in a way and that we explore the TVD universe through her eyes, I am wondering if she is there to give us permission to be ok with all the Salvatores’ craziness. I think that I am supposed to be ok with the Salvatores, no matter what, because she is.

    Her: yeah, she’s obviously like, Idk, the cell phone service that the Salvatores use to connect to everyone. Basically invisible, but necessary

    me: Yes. And then people blame the cell phone

    Her: It’s like — don’t get mad at the faulty reception, get pissed at what’s being said, you know? But elena will also scramble the signal to try and protect the salvatores.

    me: Like you mentioned, I find it interesting that a lot of fans (including me) blame Elena for being all about the Salvatores but no one blames the other characters for being all about Elena. She is totally a way to make everyone and everything about the Salvatores while keeping the Salvatores popular. or at least not hitting us in the face with their hideousness too much. I think we are also supposed to think that their desire to help her makes them redeemable. Like as long as they are at least willing to protect a girl like us (Elena), they can’t be that bad

    Her: I think also, the writers try to build up Elena as a good person, so that her judgment that the Salvatores are fundamentally good has some weight with us, and so we’re more forgiving of them

    me Exactly. Strangely, the part that bugs me the most is that they have killed off all the adults in the Gilbert family who could have opposed the Salvatores. Alaric, who is the only adult figure in their lives now, is Damon’s best friend. I think that they had to get rid of the parents because, of course, it would make no sense for parents to be ok with the Salvatores. The kids can be sort of excused because they are so young and so much bad stuff has happened to them. Ugh! wtvr with this show

    Her: sick sick sick. how can a woman run this? i feel like I know too much about JP 😛

    me: What do you mean? Please share your psychoanalysis of JP

    Her: I mean, it’s sick to me that a woman runs this show in which the lead is just a medium for men to make themselves seem acceptable to children even though they’re really monsters

    me: yep

    Thanks Alta and Cana. You guys made an ep I really really *hated* sound funny as heck. Getting reminded of all the ways this ep failed made me LMAO.

    I like that the comments sections are almost turning into mini forums. I am going to miss these podcasts.

    • In the comments section of the last ep, I wrote about how they start an idea with one character and then use that same idea for another character. An example of that happened in this ep.

      I’m getting ahead of myself, but it also happens in the premier with Andie.

      They can’t keep any parents on the show because that might divide the Gilbert kids’ loyalties. There might be an effective opposition to the influence that the Salvatores have over everyone.

      I agree. They’re running from it.

      About Elena: I’m going with the option that we’re supposed to be inserting into Elena. She’s a medium for us. That can be seen by the way the Fandom is divided on who to ship her with (though it’s more about the guys than her), and also by the fact that they use her to guide us on how to feel about Damon. That’s something I bring up in the finale podcast since I read this discussion you posted. While Elena is attacked from all sides, I think we’re supposed to focus more on the fact that she “triumphs.” I’m thinking that’s why they never have her break down. We’re not supposed to see her like that.

      I like that the comments sections are almost turning into mini forums.

      So am I!

    • Emily, I really thought they were going to do this. When the real Klaus showed up so soon, I thought it was anti-climatic. At the very least, they should have had Alaric!Klaus mess with them in more. I don’t know why they didn’t let Klaus have Alaric’s memories. He was inside Alaric’s body after all. It would have been interesting to watch Klaus use Alaric’s knowledge of the group against them.

      Yeah, that’s what I was expecting, too. It could have been so good! I don’t understand how the writers could pass on this opportunity to create some real tension.

      I agree with Alta. We’re supposed to be inserting into Elena and see her as a strong female character because she never breaks down.

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