Episode 38: The House Guest


Callers: Olu, Cana.

Quotes of the Podcast:

“You’re gonna tell me someone stole her powers, and she’s not doing anything? She’s not scared; she doesn’t react to losing her powers! […] She’s not angry; she’s not sad; she’s not depressed; she’s not confused; she’s not hurt; she’s not bitter. There is literally nothing in terms of a reaction from her. Nothing!”-Moi

“This whole family [the Martins] is brought on to not.matter.”-Olu

“Elijah’s White family is worth putting the world in danger, but Jonas’ little Black daughter is not worth that courtesy. Great is not worth this. She’s not worth Elena’s safety, so Jonas dies, and Greta is completely ignored.”-Moi


41 thoughts on “Episode 38: The House Guest

  1. Hey Alta. It’s your favorite episode!

    You aren’t the only one who feels stupid about this show and how it …*sigh*

    Alta you are asking too many rational logical questions. I only wish that the writers and producers could hear you.

    Still wearing eyeliner! Lol emo phase!

    And didn’t Jonas die IN ELENA’S HOUSE? How do you get past that? I would be staring at the spot every time I passed it.

    Lmao at Elena impression.

    Caroline and Matt’s conflicts are so contrived. I think Matt and Caroline had better chemistry, hands down!

    Yup! And this had bad connotations also.

    I loved Matt’s reaction because it was so normal and honest and truthful. And I love that -no matter how big a leap he took- Matt immediately connected Caroline to what happened to Vickie. I love it!

    I feel like Matt had more to do than Alaric.

    Caroline coming after Matt like that reminds me of that scene where Stefan is pointing at Katherine in the tomb. That time he was losing his mind.

    I like to see Damon hurt too. heheh

    Emily would not tell a vampire about that. Nope.

    Hey I thought we only got ten minutes!

    Caroline’s girls night out. It was pointless. I don’t even know why Bonnie was there except to order pizza on that gadget.

    Elena is a princess.
    I COULD NOT BELIEVE THAT! SHOW ME! DON’T HAVE OTHER CHARACTERS TELL ME. You know they can’t give Kat too much. She’s a scene stealer. *side eye*

    I would be so happy if Bonnie broke cut them all off. I would love it if she were cold to Elena. I would love it if they came knocking at her door (bet they don’t even know where she lives) and she wasn’t there in their time of dire straights. She left and didn’t tell them where she went and changed her cell phone. Burn MF! (is a little bitter)

    I told you I didn’t like Stefan ever since he demanded Bonnie help him lift the damn seal off the tomb. Unforgivable Stefan. Back the fuck up.

    OMG! STEFAN! When he did that …. It was like he stepped right the fuck over her body and tried to get his claws into another witch. And I forgot to tell you. There were people who said “Cool, Bonnie lost her powers she didn‘t do shit with them any way.” I told them “ That’s right she did nothing, except make Caroline a ring, and saved the town, and got the moon stone and located Elena when Stefan let her get kidnapped.” They had the NERVE TO TELL ME: “Well they don’t need Bonnie anyway they have the Martin’s now!”

    … I can’t even. I’m just seeing red is all. I CAN’T!

    The Martins don’t hate “US”. THIS IS WHY BONNIE NEEDS HER GRANDMOTHER! OMG These people need mentors or else they become victimized by the Salvatore’s and their agenda. UGH! BRING BACK SHEILA, MASON, JOHN, JULES!

    I would have walked away from that insensitive asshole! HOW COULD HE! I CAN’T EVEN! I CAN’T ALTA!

    God this is so privileged. Why would they THINK, just because they put Elijah on ice, that Jonas or Luka would want to work FOR these stranger bitches?

    It’s not just the worst story line TVD has ever done. I find it to be the most offensive as well. When Greta died with nothing … I felt so hurt and I hated the show. I hated Damon I wanted him dead so I could stop watching this atrocity.

    When Luka and Jonas died I thought … oh I can’t wait to meet Greta. I can’t wait to see how she will react to this. How she will swear vengeance on the Salvatore’s who murdered her family …

    It was a waste of time. What did they talk about? HOW ARE THEY FRIENDS! I … (breathe Cana).

    Oh don’t forget they are talking that gadget. Product Placement time! Product placement trumps Bonnie’s story! It is so out of place like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

    “She might as well have not told Elena for how much Elena cares.” word It could have just slipped out one day and maybe we’ll get to see Elena have a real reaction, but no.

    “Jeremy‘s been there for her.” *hint hint!*

    Damn Jeremy, cold blooded! Who wrote this episode?

    IF Jonas knew how why didn’t he try to kill Klaus?

    I wanted Bonnie to keep quiet about her powers being back. BONNIE SAID WHAT!? Holy shit Alta! EVERYBODY?

    THE MARTINS! *sigh*

    Maybe it’s harder to move things when you’re astro projecting. *rolls eyes*

    I love that we’re going “mmm’hmmm”

    THIS SHOW! I can’t!

    Jonas goes “ape-shit”.

    I can’t say anything right now either I’m too disgusted.
    I don’t understand how this gets on TV with no explanation … it just brings me so down.
    They didn’t even think about Bonnie when they kill Jonas. What if he died and Bonnie power was perminatly crippled because Jonas died with the answer.

    O_O it’s Bonnie! 😀 why am I smiling …lol

    I just wanted to punch some writers for this episode.

    • Yep. This episode has replaced Blood Brothers.

      And didn’t Jonas die IN ELENA’S HOUSE? How do you get past that? I would be staring at the spot every time I passed it.

      I know right? But apprently she and Jeremy just use the bathroom like it’s no big deal.

      Hey I thought we only got ten minutes!

      !!! Maybe I should limit it to one topic per caller. But I like to hear Olu talk! Eh, I’ll figure it out.

      It was like he stepped right the fuck over her body and tried to get his claws into another witch.

      Yes! I forgot to mention that during the recording, but he was basically trying to get more power in order to save Elena. He didn’t give a damn about Greta. Clearly. And now I’m imagining if Jonas had agreed and Stefan would be trying to sell the idea that saving Elena is what will save Greta. So use all your powers to keep her safe, Jonas and Luka! Maybe if there hadn’t been two prospective warlocks, Stefan would’ve cared more about Bonnie losing her powers. As it is, he thought he had a backup.

      I remember reading that, and it was infuriating. The Fandom is like the Big Three. They have no appreciation for what Bonnie does and they think she’s completely replaceable.


      Do you realize that none of these people gave a damn about the Salvatores? They cared about at least one of our regulars, but that’s not good enough. They need to bow to the Salvatores or else it’s adios. Sheila would do anything for Bonnie, but thought Damon and Stefan could rot in the tomb as long as the town would be safe. Mason loved Tyler and tried to kill Stefan and Damon. John would kill Elena safe, but unfortunately for him the first people he would kill would be Stefan and Damon, so he had to go (so now for sure, no one can say they care about Elena more than Stefan and Damom. We all know Jeremy will be a non-factor). Jules wanted to help Tyler, but she didn’t give a damn about vampires and attempted to kill Damon (and succeeded in killing his friend). But dedication to other characters/between characters is not reason enough to stay on the show. Just ask the people who keep saying they don’t need to see Bonnie’s father if it’s not going to tie in to the plot (i.e. the Salvatores).

      Holy shit Alta! EVERYBODY?

      Yup. At one point, I truly had no use for any of them. I found Greta more sympathetic than all of them.

      • I know right? But apprently she and Jeremy just use the bathroom like it’s no big deal.

        Well if you’re going to have a bloody murder in the house.

        !!! Maybe I should limit it to one topic per caller. But I like to hear Olu talk!

        I like to hear her talk too. It’s so soothing/calming. No need to change.

        I found Greta more sympathetic than all of them.

        I can agree with this. I wanted Greta to come in and show Bonnie you don’t have to be in this situation. I miss season1 finale Bonnie. She was a cold hard bitch.

          • Why would she go after Stefan though if she were like that? I’d think the only reason she’d go after him would be to kill him. I just remember Bonnie literally being pushed to the side after she let Damon and Stefan come out of that Gilbert house.

            I think it was really big of her to go talk to Stefan after that.

            • That’s what I meant. I wonder what are the chances of Bonnie going after Stefan (to kill him or trap him), thereby getting hardass Bonnie back. Or will she fall in line with Elena and simply want to save him. Or fall in line with Damon and simply want to wait him out (while he kills people).

              • Gosh this is another reason I wanted Greta to live, so that Bonnie could have someone else on the show who was like her. Greta and Bonnie could have had a Billie/Christy thing going on or something. I just want Bonnie to have someone outside of the vampires. Someone who will take her side against them. Hey Matt … maybe. If he’s not too pissed off.

                • I thought Luka was going to be that person. *Sigh* Yeah, we have Jer but we need another one. Heck, we need a witch. Come back, Lucy! And then leave with Bonnie!

  2. Regarding Stefonnie – My headcannon about this budding friendship is that it ended in the season two premier. Stefan only cared about Damon and Elena at that point. Bonnie threatened to kill one of the two people (Damon) he cared about in that episode. Honestly, I was surprised by fandom’s reaction to Stefan calling Bonnie a weapon. I really didn’t think they were friends.

    Is it possible that Bonnie is Stefan’s witch? He saved her life in season one. That is how Katherine got Emily to work for her. I wonder if Stefan has some magical connection with Bonnie.

    The Martins’ deaths would have pissed me off no matter what race they belonged to. There was so much time wasted on this storyline and it wasn’t even used to explore Bonnie more. I really hate how they pointlessly give guest stars so much screentime. My thinking is that short term characters should serve the function of furthering along the development of main characters. They shouldn’t have their own contained storylines that don’t have an impact at all. All those little scenes between Jonas and Luka or the Martins and Elijah irk me on rewatch. It wouldn’t have bothered me so much if they then made Elijah a regular. At least then, I can see those scenes as development for Elijah. It also pissed me off that Greta got almost as much build-up as Klaus and *nothing* came of it.

    Luka taught Bonnie how to channel and we learned some rules about astral projecting. That was it.

    This is the point when my online bff and I were like, is this show racist? Then the sacrifice happened near the end and we were like, WTF?! Is this show sexist too?

    Imo, we are not supposed to think that Bonnie had no reaction to losing her powers. We are supposed to know that it bothered her through the throwaway line that Elena uttered. Imo, we are supposed to think Bonnie was in denial like Jeremy said. She was trying to act tough and make it look like it didn’t bother her because she has this thing now about not showing weakness.

    I know that the writing for Bonnie sucks and it bugs me SO MUCH. However, it always feels to me like someone – maybe just *one* person cares about the writing for Bonnie. I feel like no one gives a damn about Elena. What did she do this episode? Absolutely nothing. Not showcasing the Elena/Bonnie friendship is not only detrimental to Bonnie’s development but to Elena’s too. I really wanted to see that phone call between Elena and Bonnie.

    Jeremy was the most annoying character of this episode for me. He gave a reaction when Damon was killing Mason but he does not give a damn about a boy his age getting burned to death. The cannon I can’t ignore is that Jeremy never followed through on Mason’s dying request and felt nothing for Luka.

    Regarding the singing, Candice said it was a one time thing in an interview. The singing was so odd the first time I watched it. It is even more pointless now that I know they are not going to make this a regular part of Caroline. What are these people doing? They keep throwing random shit at the characters. They don’t think about how any of it fits into who a character is.

    I love Matt. Idgaf. People keep trying to tell me that this character is anti-feminist but that opinion makes no sense to me. The only objectionable thing I can see about the character is that they don’t let Caroline move past him or respond to him in kind. How does that makes sense though? She can’t be all up in his face when she is feeling guilty about putting him in danger and lying to him.

    The friendship of the girls is rarely given any importance. If it was important to the show, we would see Elena discuss the latest drama with Bonnie and/or Caroline on a regular basis. The Salvatores do that all the time. They have their little debriefings in almost every episode. It is not much but it shows that this relationship is somewhat important to the show. Elena’s relationship outside the Salvatores are not important.

    Did you guys see the Jeremy and Matt pics that were released recently? I believe they are from ep 302. Hot! LOL

    • Is it possible that Bonnie is Stefan’s witch? He saved her life in season one. That is how Katherine got Emily to work for her. I wonder if Stefan has some magical connection with Bonnie.

      A lot of people have wondered this. It would make so much sense if that was the case. But it would have to be about Bonnie (and Stefan), and season 3 seems ready to show Stefan’s murderous tendencies in a sympathetic light. Plus the producers don’t care to explain how becoming indebted to a vampire works.

      This is the point when my online bff and I were like, is this show racist? Then the sacrifice happened near the end and we were like, WTF?! Is this show sexist too?

      I feel like this show started showing mysogenistic tendencies before it started showing race problems. I don’t know why.

      Not showcasing the Elena/Bonnie friendship is not only detrimental to Bonnie’s development but to Elena’s too.

      And even when they do try to showcase it, it’s still detrimental to Elena’s character, imo. You have the ending scene in History Repeating where Bonnie almost died, but she’s comforting Elena. You have Isobel where Bonnie is mad at Elena siding with the brothers, yet she shows up to Elena’s house to comfort her. People’s favorite word to use in reference to Bonnie in the B/E friendship is how loyal Bonnie is. Elena fans/”fans have said “I’d want a friend like her!” I’ve seen people say they’d want a friend like Caroline. I’ve yet to see anyone say they’d want a friend like Elena. Constantly portraying Bonnie doing the giving, Bonnie doing the comforting, Bonnie doing the reacing out, does not show Elena in a positive light to me.

      I agree with you that I don’t get the sense that anyone on the writing staff cares about Elena. You have writers sneaking in stuff like Bonnie’s ancestors founding the town. I’ve never gotten the sense that anyone has snuck anything in for Elena. Maybe it’s because her “storyline” is so tied to the Salvatores.

      He gave a reaction when Damon was killing Mason but he does not give a damn about a boy his age getting burned to death.

      That’s why the comment felt so ooc to me and why it took me out of the scene the first time. Just…what?

      The cannon I can’t ignore is that Jeremy never followed through on Mason’s dying request and felt nothing for Luka.


      I watched that Candice interview. So what I said is true. We’ll never see it again. That wasn’t Caroline singing. It was Candice. It’s so hard for me to accept Caroline being able to sing/having rockstar dreams as canon.

      I saw the pictures!!!! Jeremy looks so damn hot! And in that pic with Matt, I think he looks like Mason. I’m looking forward to their scenes.

      • I feel like this show started showing mysogenistic tendencies before it started showing race problems. I don’t know why.

        Well Caroline it s running theme in this. They shame her and hurt her at every opportunity. And Damon has still not apologized.

        I have to say that i was a bit tipsy when I did my bit. Hens my extra excitement (babbling).

      • [I feel like this show started showing mysogenistic tendencies before it started showing race problems. I don’t know why.] – Idk how to do italics here.

        I think the race problems started early too. It just wasn’t to the point that I was comfortable calling the show sexist or racist out right. I am one of those people who was uncomfortable with making all the witches AA. As soon as the first AA non-Bennett (Bree) witch showed up, alarm bells started going off in my head. They basically made all the black people on the show a *different species*… sort of. Come On. There are white humans, white vampires and white werewolves. Where are the black humans and werewolves? The black characters were effectively segregated. And within the context of this particular show – Civil War, American South -, that is extra messed up. I knew that no good could come from this. I had no faith that the guy who made Dawson’s Creek would be able to navigate whatever racial metaphor he was trying to make properly. As if black characters would be given real power as a group. The only black vampire (Harper) was the lackey of another vampire. All the AA characters were turned into the “helpers” I knew they would end up being. Making them all witches made that easier. Because this is a show about vampires and not witches, by definition they are all going to be secondary characters too. They have a built in excuse to not explore their point of view. They are the OTHER in every sense. I am not sure if I am wording this correctly.

        Now making the Originals black would be giving black characters real power but they will never do that.

        As for the misogyny, yeah I saw it too. I tend to let a lot of that stuff slide so that I can enjoy my entertainment. I mean, lord knows the world is anti-woman and that attitude permeates everything but I feel like this show has taken it to a different level. A level that most Young Adult tv shows don’t take it. Just compare this show to something like Teen Wolf.

        I’m not asking the show to actually be feminist, but seriously, does it have to act like women are BAD and/or CIPHERS?

        • I meant to say – *I tend to let a lot of that stuff slide so that I can enjoy my entertainment but I can’t do that anymore with this show.

        • To italicize, put this the sentence you want to italicize, and then put this (. Ignore the parentheses. I only put that so the sentence wouldn’t be italicized.

          What you said is one of the most compelling complaints I’ve read about most of the witches and warlocks being Black. Because it’s true. It does give them a built in excuse. We have yet to see one powerful witch working for herself or for the goals of other witches. So much of Bonnie’s story and goals is wrapped up in Elena and the vampires that she barely counts. She’s done one thing that was of her own complete volition and that’s it. And you’re right about the segregation of the Black characters. It would be one thing if they routinely showed up as humans, vampires (and there are plenty of opportunities for that), or werewolves (bet the one that’s coming will be White), but they’re always witches and the bad part, they’re always serving a vampire who’s White, and worse, they end up dying while that vampire goes on living.

          It’s kind of like saying White people are the only ones who can be individuals. They can be vampires, humans, werewolves, and even warlocks (hi, Maddox), but Black people are homogenous.

          But like I’ve said I’ll take it if the alternative is that Bonnie is the only Black witch and all (or most) of the guess witches are White. This show has enough White narratives.

          There is absolutely no reason why the Originals needed to be White. None.

          • I just realized it didn’t show up and Cana’s kind of isn’t either. I keep trying to fix it, but it’s not showing up. You can google html codes: italicizing.

        • I still don’t have a problem with the witches being POC, because it’s like real life and it needs to be addressed. I do have a problem of TPTB ignoring their problematic tendencies. It really makes me wonder how some of this stuff gets on the air. It baffles me completely.

          Now making the Originals black would be giving black characters real power but they will never do that.

          I don’t know about that. Guaranteed the originals would have been taken out and probably not made it into the second season. I think it would have played out differently and they may have introduced an even extra special vampire who could defeat the originals who just happened to be white. *Kanye shrug*

          • I was thinking along the lines of keeping the importance of the Originals but just changing the skin color. So Black!Elijah would be guaranteed to come back (imagine the Fandom falling in love with this Black character and hoping he returns. Lol), Black!Klaus would’ve escaped, and there’d be a family of Black people coming. Of course they’d probably make the dude who’s even more powerful than Klaus White, but….

            • and there would have been no family. It would have been (POC)Elijah and same Klaus …

              i confused myself. Wouldn’t it have been awesomely awkward for Jenna and the audience if (POC)Elijah told her about the descendants of slaves were the true holders of history? Would Jenna have made that joke then? i doubt it.

            • Black people only showing up as witches while White people show up as humans, warlocks, werewolves, and vampires can be compared to real life where, in America at least, White people are seen as individuals who can be anything. No one White person represents all White people. But a Black person’s behavior can be taken to represent the whole group. Like on the show where all prominent Black characters are one thing: witches.

              Let me know if you think I’m off base. I think there’s merit to the comparison though.

              • Hmmm. So the show is presenting this perception onscreen? That would work if the show then really gave us the POVs of the witches – made them very individual and working towards goals of their own by themselves like the werewolves – but they don’t. If they did, it would be a clever way of subverting this perception. Therefore, it is almost like they are saying that this perception is real. They are not questioning it. In there heads, black people are there to serve? Ugh! I seriously can’t with this show.

                The reason I am posting here so much is because the person I used to discuss the show with has quit it (and all the forums seem to be super hostile or devoid of real discussion). She couldn’t stomach it anymore. She told me it is because of the show’s race and gender issues. She wrote this super long letter that she was going to send to the writers about the show’s race problems but she changed her mind. She was like, what is the point? This girl is white btw. I wonder if I am more tolerant of this show because I am happy to be seeing this many black people at all.

                • That’s what this show does. It presents things but it doesn’t subvert it even though it has the chance. I brought this up when I talked about how it brought up the fact that the characters of color (the Black characters) did the important stuff in 1864. It’s not as many people on the Council believe. White Jonathan Gilbert didn’t do crap. But instead of delving more into this, they ignore the only prominent Black character. Elijah says the descendants of the slaves are the true bearers of American (and Mystic Falls) history and instead of doing something with that, they ignore the descendant of the slaves and remain focused on the White narratives.

                  I also know what you mean about the forums. I pretty much don’t plan to participate in any until Bonnie is back onscreen. There’s so much negativity. That might sound weird coming from me, but I never see them acknowledging any positives about Bonnie in season 2. And I just can’t take it.

                  Did she quit over the summer?

                  • Yes, she quit over the summer. She could not stand the infamous line that Elena said to Damon in the finale – I like you now just the way you are (or something like that). Before that, we were both trying to find a way to rationalize Stefan/Elena/Damon in our heads to make it seem not as gross as it really is. Plus, the spoilers were all Delena, Delena, Delena, Klaus, Forwood and Jeremy/ghost!gfs. She was only mildly interested in the last one. She thinks that Caroline is just a romance device on the show now. Caroline, Bonnie and Emily were her faves in the first season but she can’t stand Caroline now. She basically had the opposite reaction of about 99% of fandom. LOL. She compared Caroline to Bella Swan. I haven’t watched or read Twilight so I have no idea what she is talking about. She also thinks that Klaus has robbed everyone of their agency (including Stefan). She thinks that a show should be about the main characters navigating their world, making choices and having goals of their own. But in TVD, they simply react. Their only goal is survival now and they don’t seem to have many choices. She says they are simply acting as antagonists to Klaus. It is Klaus’ story. I am not sure I understood her there very well or if I am repeating what she said correctly. She is a budding writer (went to school for it and everything) so some of the stuff she would tell me about storytelling would go over my head. The final straw, for her, was the lack of Bonnie news. When she heard that Bonnie might not be in the premier, that was it. She made up her mind. Idk. She might still watch the premier because we still talk. She might watch it because I watched it.

                    • That’s interesting about Caroline. I recently read someone saying that Caroline is as much of a mary-sue as Damon. I don’t remember her exact words but it was compelling enough for me to read the whole thing. I’m actually interested to see what the majority’s opinion of Caroline will be over the course of season 3. I wonder how many of the people who hate Matt because he “stalls Caroline’s storyline” will forsake her and prioritize Tyler. Or have more lax expectations for Tyler than Matt. We’ve already seen signs of the latter.

            • It’s like real live because POC’s are being viewed as “The Other”. And in the VD mythology it’s not just the witches, it’s the werewolves too. I would have liked to draw parallels to werewolves also being “The Other” with the fact that Michael Trevino playing the main werewolf (being as he is a man of color), but it falls flat because he is playing a white man.

              Even so it’s called “The Vampire Diaries” which means the vampires are the most prominent characters. And you have a guy like Damon killing anyone and everyone who he thinks is a threat to him (that is if Elena or Stefan don’t stop him). He’s a monster but we aren’t really supposed to treat him like one. To me the Salvatore’s and vampires like them embody white privilege.

              The witches are view as second class (if that) citizens who are in the shadow of their vampires and sometimes fellow humans, while they run things in the background. It happened in American history when white slave owners built their empires on the backs of their black slaves.

              Sometimes I feel like this show is just some really fucked up meta.

              I would love it if the witches have a scene an episode where we just got information from their POV. undiluted.

              God help me if they bring a white witch/warlock on and they fix everything. I’ll have words. … or my head will just explode.

              I hope I explained myself okay. Things tend to bottle neck in my head.

              • I actually think the racial meta used to be a lot more complex. However, I don’t disagree with you. What you wrote makes total sense. I think what is going on in the show is strange, though, because I think it has changed over the course of the show. I think that the vampires very definitely also represented racial minorities (including blacks) in the beginning of the series. I am thinking specifically of how the vampires were massacred for being what they are and how Damon had to “pass” in order to claim what is his birthright in a way – a seat on the Council. But now they’ve become the ones with privilege and the bad guys. Well, some of them were always the bad guys but it didn’t feel like it does now. It used to be that the Founding Families were the bad guys. It is disappointing that “blacks” are represented by the somewhat robotic and largely dead/subdued witches whose POV we never get to see. I guess werewolves represent other minorities in general?

                I like what you said about white privilege and Damon. I think Damon’s central dilemma is really tied in to the central dilemma of the show (his issue with power/control/being controlled most especially) and so I think he is necessary on the show. Not that I agree with how he’s been used, and not that I enjoy his storylines. One of the things that have been driving mad about the show is that – in the finale, all the lasting consequences fell on the Gilbert kids, (a little bit) Bonnie and Stefan. Damon got away with having a bad flu for like one day. Is Damon real? It doesn’t seem like it. Nothing really happens to him for any length of time. No one is allowed to be mad at him for longer than 30 secs. If he is not the personification of privilege, Idk what is. And now it looks like Stefan will be treated the same way in the next season. I am not saying that Stefan was always “good” before but it seems like the show really made an effort at showing us how Stefan created consequences for himself if nothing else (especially in season one). For example, his suicide attempt. I also think that the first season, or the bulk of the first season anyway, was a different show, for all intents and purposes. I mean, even in terms of Damon, he was just one HUGE consequence of Katherine’s actions. Not to say the first season was perfect, but it was MUCH more coherent.

                I am curious about something. Have you guys articulated any of your analysis in a forum where there is a good chance of the writers/producers reading it? Until this discussion, I thought that adding Maddox was a good thing and that it was going to lead to the addition of black humans, werewolves etc to balance things out. I don’t mean fan forums like vampire-diaries.net. I mean like…I am not sure what I mean because I am not sure if there are any well-known forums that are known for good analysis. Maybe Television Without Pity? Do you think they read tumblr? I am not on it and I find it hard to navigate. I know the writers read Twitter but this stuff can’t really be written on Twitter. Do you think they listen to this podcast? JP and KW have said in interviews that they take fan response into account when writing.

                • I think the only places the producer frequent are places like vd.net and TWOP. I highly doubt they listen to this podcast. Lol. It’s so hard to have this discussion in greater Fandom because people are always ready to shoot you down or misread what you’re saying and completely derail the conversation. Someone actually came down on me after I posted the Rose podcast over the fact that I called Caroline a jerk for laughing in Tyler’s face. She was giving me a lesson about how a woman doesn’t have to act in a way to please a man. Then she said I was victim-blaming Elena on the Bad Moon Rising podcast. I responded to both charges, but I haven’t heard back from her.

  3. Why is Matt still interested in Caroline? Why is Matt anything? At this point, I am only interested in the character because I think the actor is hot. Btw, the eyeliner on Alaric in these episodes really really bugged me. It was very noticeable. For a second there, I thought Alaric was into makeup. Actually, that would have made Alaric interesting. Alaric is so useless. Why is he still around? The actress who played Jenna was so talented and actually had a concrete reason to be on the show.

    Stefan’s opinion on Katherine matters more than Elena’s because he is a special white MAN.

    It really bothers me how no one reacts to murder and violence appropriately on this show.

    • Why is Matt still interested in Caroline? Why is Matt anything?

      For a second there, I thought Alaric was into makeup. Actually, that would have made Alaric interesting. Alaric is so useless. Why is he still around?

      I legit laughed out loud.

      If they wanted to keep a male around, it should have been UJ. I feel more could’ve been mined with him than freaking Alaric. Isobel is dead, soooo what will he be doing aside from the stuff with Jer/Elena (who’ll probably always be with Damon)?

  4. I am sorry that my posts here are getting out of control and this is OT but… Why is there Bonnie/Damon shipping? I joined online fandom after season 2 started so I feel like I missed something. I was just lurking on fanforum and the Bamon thread is huge. Why do people wish Damon on Bonnie? If it ever really happened on the show, I would die a little on the inside. The only way I can see this playing out is if something like Amnesiac!Eric over at TB happens on this show. I can only buy it if Bonnie is out of her mind somehow but not because of anything Damon did. It would fit into the pattern of Damon being with women who are not all there.

    You mentioned you were a Bamon fan in one of your previous podcasts. Why?

    Personally, my fave Damon pairing is Damon/No one

    • Don’t worry about it.

      *Sigh* The thing is that back in season 1, I didn’t see Damon being with Bonnie as wishing him on her. I didn’t feel that way about Delena. I just didn’t want Delena together because I felt Damon’s personality was too powerful/aggressive for meek Elena. Bonnie has the personality that more closely resembles Katherine’s. She can be no nonsense, ruthless, and she has tangible power.

      The way I read Damon in season 1 was as someone who can be ruthless, careless, insensitive, and an ass. But more importantly, I read him as someone who could learn from his mistakes. Someone who could recognize boundaries and people’s feelings over time. Which means I viewed all he did in season 1 as forgiveable. Abusing Caroline, almost killing Bonnie, the people he murdered. I never thought he would repeat what he did to Caroline. I thought he would grow (over the course of more than just one season), and eventually he would have a talk with Caroline where he basically apologized for what he did to her. And it would be through acts like that that Bonnie’s opinion of him would start to change. Damon would grow to care (maybe not in a cuddly way) about more people than just Elena and Stefan. And his last scene with Katherine in the finale gave me no reason to doubt that, the fact that he was able to recognize that Bonnie had reason to kill him and he maybe saw something in the fact that she saved him instead.

      Also, back in season 1 they weren’t forcing us to feel sorry for him; they weren’t throwing characters under the bus for his developement/storyline, etc.

      I even saw him killing Jeremy as a good thing (and forgivable. Because I wasn’t paying that much attention to Elena at the time. She forgave him, what else is new?) I felt they rushed the storyline with him in the last two episodes of season 1 to the point where he was almost crying in his scene with Jeremy. So I thought him killing Jeremy was the producers seeing that they need more than a two episodes to chill the character out.

      Instead Jeremy forgot his murder faster than Elena, he’s continued to treat Caroline badly, the Mason thing, they did “redeem” him in one season, Andie happened, his respect for Bonnie flip-flops, he keeps killing people, Andie, Jessica, he has no respect for anyone, and most importantly I do not get the sense that he will ever apologize to the other characters for what he did to them, how he treats them, how he talks about them. They keep making him do things, and the characters just take it. And after what he did to Elena, no matter how many times they have Bonnie ignore it and try to save his life 3 episodes later, I cannot see Bonnie ever being interested in him. And actually at this point, I don’t think I can see him ever being interested in Bonnie. I need to think on that particular thought more though.

      Now, I still see Bamon fans saying they only want Damon with Bonnie after he gets his act together. Well, I wonder what constitutes as “getting his act together” for them? Does his acknowledgement of what he did to the other characters figure into that? I spoke to a Bamon fan who said Damon would have to do something really bad to get her to not want him for Bonnie, and I have to wonder what that is. The show will never call what he does rape. And I don’t get the sense that many of them see Elena as a real character (in the sense that what Damon does to her/how he treats her is not acceptable. Which is upsetting). So I get the sense that for these fans, Damon would have to do something to Bonnie. But what? He’s already tried to kill her and he’s expressed no concern for her life on two occasions. Would he have to abuse her like he did Caroline? Force-feed her his blood like he did Elena? I don’t know.

      Right now, I ship either Damon/no one or Damon/Stake. I do not want him with Bonnie. I don’t want her character to get repeatedly thrown under the bus in the manner Elena is. And number two, I don’t want more of her knowing he did egregious things and still wanting to preserve his life. Imagine if they’re dating. Damon will never stop being murderous/careless/insensitive/inappropriate because that’s the box the producers have put him in. The problem is that it hurts, like, all the other characters.* The distance between him and Bonnie right now is as close I ever want her to him.

      *They have Caroline in a box too. She has yet to stand up to a prominent man in her life. But it’s not hurting/infringing on any character but her. By that I mean, she doesn’t have me looking at other characters and scracthing my head. The same goes for Elena, actually (well, mostly). And now I’m trying to figure out if Bonnie’s boxed. I use “reacting to a situation in the same way” as being boxed. So Caroline always cries/becomes docile whenever a dude gets in her face. Elena forgives murder/space invasion/anything. And Damon’s inappropriate; always trying to kill before thinking or having all the info (Mason/Jules/Elijah).

    • I want to answer this question too, if you don’t mind.

      I used to ship Bonnie/Damon in season 1. I believe it’s what got me to watch the show in the first bit. Damon wasn’t as horrible in the first season as he is now. Damon is a total monster now but dressed as a world weary haggard romantic figure.

      I laid Bonnie/Damon down in the Last Dance and then I killed it when he killed Greta. I never ever wanted him to touch anther witch again and if he did I wanted Bonnie to feel all the death he cause when he touched her. It’s too soon. Maybe in 3 years I can get back into it if they let Damon grow out of this box the producers have put him in, as Alta’s said.

      If i had to ship damon with anyone/thing it’d be Damon/Katherine (where she torments him and makes him cry blood tears then laughs in his face), Damon/Forever Alone or Damon/death.

  5. The Best Episode Ever.

    + Katherine played no mind games at all. It would have been more interesting if in, “by the light of the moon”, she’d gotten into Stefan’s dreams and pretended to be Elena, if only because that would have been a true mind game.

    + We’re never going to understand why Elena wants or feels anything. These characters are just going to say things for the convenience of the plot. If there had been some real mind games in BTLOTM, maybe Stefan’s turnaround would have made sense.

    + Elijah is a man of his word. That’s all Elena’s need.

    + Elena did cry in the finale. To signal her strength and her loss. You know how it goes.

    + Elena saying people’s names: “Isabel. Uncle John. Stefan. Damon. Jeremy.” Hilarious.

    + They don’t even explain the retcon later.

    + Emily told Katherine because someone white had to know about what happened and conveyed it to us.

    + What really sucks about Elena’s importance is that her role is passive. Like there is no way to get around the doppelgänger being a largely passive being but everyone cares.

    + Did Caroline even know about the ritual until she was almost a part of it?

    + These characters don’t protect each other at all. They rarely show concern for each other and we’re supposed to believe in the friendships on the show. What makes it worse is that they are also rarely allowed to show concern for themselves, so there is a level of cognitive dissonance with what the characters are doing, feeling, and experiencing. It effects Bonnie, Tyler, Jeremy, Elena, and Matt the most, but it really effects each of the characters in small and large ways.

    + Jeremy’s reaction is incredibly…I can’t even describe everything wrong with it.

    + These people are dumb, so I’m not surprised that Jeremy would ask that question.

    + We’ve got no idea why he’d tell her. We’ve got no idea how to kill Klaus. We’ve still got no idea. Because Klaus is still alive and no one killed him.

    + Wait? People were calling Greta a ho? Because she looked at Klaus? Ugh. Fandom always finds a way to be made of failure. Let her look at Klaus. I shipped them for the hot minute I thought she’d get to live.

    + Elena is able to pull the dagger out easy. Alaric is able to stab Elijah through the chair and through his back with stunning accuracy. The accuracy of Alaric’s attempt to kill Elijah makes it even worse.

    + It would be interesting, re: Katherine getting Emily killed, if there was a way for a vampire to forever revoke the whole “you save my life, you owe me” rule (to bad we’re never going to figure out how that works) or could actually mark themselves through betrayal. That would change the dynamics of Lucy’s storyline, but that could be a good anything.

    + Matt is the only one who notices that Bonnie is in danger. Which is part of my canon (them being friends and everything), but I have this huge issue with the fact that Stefan and Elena (Katherine) were going to leave even though Stefan knew that Bonnie was there and didn’t have her powers. Which is partially just Stefan’s tunnel vision but also is indicative of the show’s failure to have these characters react to things and acknowledge this and be aware. There are very few relationships on the show backed up by actual story and yet…we’re supposed to believe in them.

    + Jonas doesn’t do anything because he has to die.

    + Thinking about how this season could have ended on this note of families and what people are willing to do for them would have been amazing and The Martins wouldn’t have had to die.

    + Stefan doesn’t get called on his shit. I’m starting to think people don’t know how to see that Stefan is pulling shit. Because I, like you, didn’t really consider just how much shit he pulled until I started doing a rewatch. I never considered him the good brother, but it didn’t occur to me just how much the show did.

    • Wait? People were calling Greta a ho? Because she looked at Klaus?

      Yep. And in the Bonnie thread too. I was so pissed. I was wondering how these people who are so used to Bonnie being called so many names for the lamest reasons could turn around and do it to this character. They were hoping Greta died because she was hoeing it out with Klaus while her family was looking for her. Ugh.

      I think this podcast is my favorite episode too. Lol. Either this one or the one we recorded, The Dinner Party.

      Emily told Katherine because someone white had to know about what happened and conveyed it to us.

      Of course. I think the last time a POC gave out pertinent information that was taken seriously (and they were conscious while they did it) was when Bonnie told Elena that it was Emily who made the devices.

      I don’t even know if Caroline knew. I’m positive she didn’t know about Vicky before Matt blurted it out. I can’t imagine Elena thinking to tell her. And I don’t think Bonnie told her either.

  6. Since I’ve already posted so much OT stuff here, what is one more. On the topic of misogyny when it comes to Elena especially – Did you guys watch the latest promo? It made me nauseous. I mean that literally. It really made me sick. These people even put Damon/Andie in the promo. I have a feeling that it is Andie in that very quick shot of a woman falling to her death. Ugh! I CAN’T.

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